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Companies Bill [Lords]

I do not think that producing a measure that is capable of so many different interpretations will solve the problem that has been caused by the Chancellor. I speak as someone who takes a strong view on this matter. I draw hon. Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. I advise a large number of companies on the subject of corporate responsibility. I prefer the term ““corporate responsibility”” to ““corporate social responsibility”” because the latter limits the coverage that companies ought to have. I am in favour, in principle, of companies having to present to their shareholders a proper account of their activities that covers not only their financial activities, but those that relate to the wider matters of corporate responsibility. I am in favour of that happening because it means that each company can talk about itself in its own way and satisfy those who listen to it in their own way. The trouble with the Minister’s proposal is that it is so incomprehensible. Either it means a great deal, as some people say, or it means nothing at all compared with the present legal situation. New clause 4, similarly, is being interpreted either as a mere tightening up—a bit of an extension involving better wording—or as a dramatic alteration. I find this difficult to deal with because I, too, have read what the campaigners have written about the new clause. Frankly, if what they say is true, what the proposers of new clause 4 have said is not quite as true. Alternatively, if what the proposers of new clause 4 say is true, it does not quite explain some of the real difficulties that many of us—who are on the same side in terms of what we are trying to do—perceive in new clause 4. The hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) rightly made that point earlier. Hon. Members would be wise not to go along with new clause 4, not on the basis that they take a view one way or the other on corporate responsibility or the mechanisms by which we should get companies to take these matters more seriously, but simply because if companies are being asked to do that, they must be clear about what they are expected to do. They must not be presented with wording that will have to be interpreted by the courts. One of the problems with the bipartisan approach that we try to take on environmental matters is that we often end up doing nothing. Everyone talks about it and the rhetoric is very good, but in the end nothing is done. The worst thing to do in such circumstances is to produce a measure that the courts are going to have to interpret. That is what worries me about this wording. It has been suggested that we should not be too mean to the Minister about this because everyone else who has tried to do something about it has been sacked. That is not a very good idea, if I may say so. The Minister has moved pretty rapidly from one job to another over the past few years, but that seems to be part of this Government’s mechanism of keeping everyone in perpetual motion lest they begin to understand the issues that they are facing and start to worry about the fact that nothing is being done. Many of us who are pushing for a climate change Bill believe that we are going to have to do a great deal more, much more precisely and with real regulation that will actually work. If we are going to do that, however, we should not at the same time load people down with vague duties and bits and pieces that the courts will interpret. I would say to the Minister that if the Government are going to introduce the kind of environmental legislation that we desperately need to cut our carbon output and change our carbon footprint, we will have to ask people to do some very tough things. So far, the Government have avoided doing any of that. Instead, they have gone in for a kind of flim-flam. The trouble with this particular flim-flam is that it will have to be interpreted by the courts, and we do not know what the outcome will be. Worse still, decent directors who try to understand this legislation will find themselves at odds with the courts. The Minister has put us in a pretty difficult position already with clause 173. I hope that she will satisfactorily defend it against new clause 4, on the basis that that is even worse, but I do wish that she would get down to some practical, direct and real environmental legislation so that we know where we were, rather than presenting us with these measures as part of a propaganda proposition to try to get the Chancellor off the hook.