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Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) (Order) 2006

If I appear somewhat more sceptical than previous speakers, it is perhaps because I have slightly more experience at the coalface of what has happened in Northern Ireland over the years. I do not want to inhibit progress or to suggest for a moment that a Commissioner for Victims and Survivors is not necessary—it certainly is. I do not want to give the impression that I am somehow looking a gift horse in the mouth. Sadly, however, my experience over the years has been that Government tend to use an occasion like this for their own narrow and selfish political ends. The noble Baronesses, Lady Harris of Richmond and Lady Blood, have both mentioned how public appointments are made in Northern Ireland. I can virtually guarantee that when the appointment of commissioner is made in this case, it will be with both eyes firmly on Dublin and no real regard for the victims. I wait to be proved wrong. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris, quite rightly mentioned sources of funding. I am of course concerned that victims should be aware of all sources of funding. I am also concerned, however, that sources of funding associated with the victims commissioner may be of the same dubious nature as that which came from the United States and has been used to fund restorative justice—totally divorced from anything to do with the police, courts and so on. I am not going to stray, but the Minister will know exactly what I am talking about; he will know exactly how the Government have turned a blind eye to that dubious source of funding. I hope that those who will benefit from a victims commissioner will perhaps ensure that the Government do not allow this sort of dubious, doubtful money to be used in this way. I am obviously concerned—I am trying to find exactly what the Minister said—about the fact that the main criterion on which a judgment will be made will be whether bodies and organisations provide services. Among the most effective bodies providing services in Northern Ireland are the prisoners organisations. Will they have equal status to those who are concerned with victims from the Ulster Defence Regiment or the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which are no longer in existence, or the Royal Irish Regiment, part-time, which is soon to be no longer in existence? Because they have been victims, the real victims and survivors tend to want to distance themselves from the circumstances that caused them to be victims. Hence, they do not have the degree of organisation and cohesiveness of those who were involved and may consider themselves—I do not—to be victims; that is, those who come from the terrorist, whether that be the loyalist or republican, side of the equation. I hope that the Minister will assure us that he is not saying that everyone, regardless of whether he gave a service or created mayhem, is to be considered equal when we deal with victims and survivors. If we get that assurance, like others who have spoken today, I will be grateful and supportive. But if we do not get that assurance, my attitude will be reflected 100,000 times over by people in Northern Ireland who have seen their victimhood diminished and the elevation in public of those who created the mayhem of more than 30 years.