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Police and Criminal Evidence (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2007

Perhaps I may say on a personal level—although one is always speaking for the Government—that I agree very much with the thrust of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. I found it difficult to understand in the year that I was a direct rule Minister, in terms of legislation, why we could not make additions to England and Wales Bills—not UK-wide Bills, due to the Scottish legal system. There are many arguments as to why you should follow one route or another—I freely admit that—and the Secretary of State has tried on some occasions to try to get Northern Ireland material added into England and Wales Bills. It does not always go down well with the usual channels, because of the size of the Bill. They do not like big Bills, which may take some time. There is also the point relating to those in Belfast who want to protect the integrity of Northern Ireland’s statute book. I fully understand that. That is a pity, because, in many ways, the operation of the police has changed. I remember PACE being introduced when I was a constituency Member of Parliament. I got the message that it was the way that the police went about their job; there was a big change and a lot of training was carried out. By and large, you would expect the same country to have the same set of rules, so that you would know where you stood and what the powers were. To that extent, I apologise on behalf of the Government for the delay in updating. I certainly apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, and others for bringing this legislation forward in this way. We much regret that and there has to be better way of legislating for Northern Ireland and we have made a commitment in terms of devolution that I repeat now—although this would not be a matter for the Assembly—we wish to find another way of legislating in Westminster. We have to do that and it is not fair to people who represent opinion in Northern Ireland, as noble Lords do here, or Members of the other place. In answer to the question asked on this order by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, it is only on the issue of the 17 year-old that Northern Ireland is now ahead of England and Wales, although as the noble Baroness said, it will not come into force straight away. The chances are that it will come into force in Northern Ireland before England and Wales. That is the only divergence, it is basically a matter of bringing the laws up to date. The Police Service of Northern Ireland has already undertaken extensive training programmes to bring officers up to date with the new powers and the revised codes of practice. Training is currently being undertaken across the police service at district command level and the police service is very confident that officers will be ready to exercise the new powers operationally on 1 March 2007. I say to the noble Baroness that, where there are changes—for example, from superintendent to inspector levels—those will have to be checked and monitored and proper training will have to be effected. There is a good reason for that. As I said, it mirrors what has happened in England and Wales. I fully accept that such a move could be treated with a degree of healthy scepticism but it is important to look at how it works in practice. The police are not free agents. The noble Baroness referred to the articles on powers of arrest and, although she did not express it in this way, from the way she spoke, anyone would think that the police will be arresting people willy-nilly. That is not the case. Their actions are incredibly circumscribed and, of course, they will operate under the codes of practice, so challenges can be made. However, I fully accept that there has to be adequate training. I am assured that that is taking place and that there will be adequate monitoring and a review of these changed powers. Ultimately, this House and the other place can be certain that the legislation will be operated in the way that Parliament intended, and I think that it will be subject to review by the Select Committees in the other place. As I said, this is a modest change. I referred to the major changes and to the fact that many are minor technical changes, but they will improve the situation in Northern Ireland. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. The legislation will be monitored and we will be able to assess the practicalities and fairness of the new scheme.