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Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I strongly believe that I can put minds at rest, but not, I am afraid, by accepting the amendment. I entirely understand the concern of the noble Lord, Lord James of Blackheath, that we do not want people to be deterred from taking on the important role of trustee in a charity. I fully acknowledge that many people bring with them skill, experience, enthusiasm and energy, which can be of huge benefit to the people who are the subjects of the charity, both here and overseas. The noble Lord painted a terrifying picture of humanitarian aid being cut off as the British public turned their backs on charities. If I thought for a moment that the Bill would do that, I would be very anxious to find a way of dealing with it. I do not think that, and I want to set at rest the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. The most important point to make is that the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord James, are about the possibility that trustees, as individuals, might be guilty of an offence under the Bill. They cannot be. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, rightly says, the Bill by its definition deals with corporate responsibility. Clause 1 identifies the organisations to which the offence applies as, "““a corporation … a department … a police force””." Now we have added specified categories of unincorporated associations; partnerships, trade unions, and employers’ associations. At no point does it include an individual. Indeed, that point is made clearer by our debate on Amendment Nos. 7 and 8 on the possibility of secondary liability. As my noble friend Lord Bassam made clear, the Government do not accept that the Bill should impose liability on individuals. Clause 16, which some noble Lords want to take out, says very clearly: "““An individual cannot be guilty of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of an offence of corporate manslaughter””." So the offence remains that against an organisation only. The Bill cannot create an offence against an individual, whether a trustee or anyone else. That does not mean that individuals might not be liable for existing criminal offences, but that liability exists already and the Bill does nothing to extend it. I hope that the noble Lord will accept the clear assurance that the Bill does not touch on the liability of individual trustees. I was slightly surprised to hear what he said about the Charity Commissioners. I say this simply so that he knows. I know that he has discussed the matter with them, but I am told that they are satisfied that no further clarification of the Bill is necessary. To that extent, he takes a different view, but that is what I am told their position is. The noble Lord may say, ““That is all very well, but wouldn’t it be a good idea to make it clear in the Bill?””. That is absolutely unnecessary, but there is always a risk, because as soon as you include in the Bill a provision that something does not apply to something that it would not otherwise look as though it does, you start to give rise to all sorts of doubts about what the other provisions actually mean. We have been very clear that this is corporate legislation; it is not directed at individuals. To claim that one category of individuals is not covered might raise doubts about whether other categories of individuals are covered. I invite the noble Lord to accept that assurance. I hope that he will be able to withdraw the amendment.