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Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, there is little need to add to what was an outstanding speech from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who comprehensively covered the full range of what I would want to say, so I just say from these Benches that I completely agree with him. However, it is important for me to add just three things. First, the vote today in no way kills the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has already made that clear, as has the noble Lord, Lord Lea. There is still time. The Minister sought to rely on the wording of the carry-over Motion but, as we all know from the Companion, it is perfectly possible for a further Motion to be proposed. If the Government require more time, then of course they must have that time, but in no circumstances should any noble Lord feel that what is happening today is decisive for the future of the Bill. My second point is that the Government are moving—I pay tribute to the Minister for the way in which she has approached discussion on the subject. I sense that many on the Government Benches feel that it is wrong for us to exclude deaths in custody. All we are seeking is something more than ministerial assurances, because we have no guarantee that the Ministers who are saying that, in principle, they accept the points made will still be in office after Thursday. I am not one of those who has sent in their CVs; I do not know who will be the Ministers on Thursday—we wait to see—but there will be a new set of Ministers and there may well be a new set at the Ministry of Justice. So the words that we have heard mean nothing at present unless we have something in the Bill. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, that my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern pointed out that under Clause 21, the provisions of the Act, "““come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may appoint by order””." Provided that the Minister accepts that we can include deaths in custody in the Bill, the Government have, as the noble Lord, Lord Lea, pointed out, the power to decide when the provisions are brought into effect. We ought to have a discussion about the timing that the Prison Service is given to comply with the provisions. Many on the government side—I pay tribute to them—feel that the Bill is inadequate without being extended in the way that the noble Lord suggested. I have had many discussions with them; they feel uncomfortable and we give them the opportunity today to settle this matter once and for all. I want the Bill on the statute book. I have the privilege of being president of the All-Party Group on Occupational Health and Safety. We have been pressing for a Bill such as this for years and members of the group will be delighted that we are now very close. It just requires the Government to include in the Bill that deaths in custody will apply on a date to be decided by the Government. I say this in a tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, who said last week, "““Where a serious crime is committed, even by a public body, it is right to mark that and bring some degree of accountability. It is also right to impose a penalty to deter not just that body but others from committing similar offences in the future””.—[Official Report, 20/6/07; col. 215.]" I agree.