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Supreme Court

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for welcoming me to my first appearance at the Dispatch Box speaking on behalf of the Ministry of Justice. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, for their warm words of welcome and I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, who has allowed us to debate an undoubtedly important matter, for his welcome, too. In my first debate, it is somewhat daunting for me to discuss the Supreme Court with noble Lords. Of course, the Law Lords are widely admired throughout the world. They stand at the pinnacle of our legal system. They are renowned for their robust impartiality, independence and intellectual rigour. I say at once from these Benches that the Government are absolutely determined that their translation into a Supreme Court should go as smoothly as possible, that their enduring characteristics should be carried forward and that the facilities at Middlesex Guildhall should be supportive of the Supreme Court, all those who come before it and, more generally, the wider public. In this debate, we have reprised a number of important matters that noble Lords have discussed over the past year or so. I shall comment on one or two of those matters before turning to the substance of the question posed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. Whether the Lord Chancellor could be a member of the House of Commons was extensively debated. It is worth reminding noble Lords that that matter was debated during the passage of the Constitutional Reform Act and that Parliament agreed that the Prime Minister should be entitled to appoint the best person for the job, whether that person sits in the Commons or the Lords. I well remember listening to some of the debates when it was suggested that a person of very junior rank might be appointed and that the role of the Ministry of Justice, or the Department for Constitutional Affairs as was, would somehow be subordinate to other government departments. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister, in appointing my right honourable friend Mr Jack Straw, has surely signalled the Government’s recognition that the Ministry of Justice is indeed a very important department of state. I have no doubt whatever that my right honourable friend Mr Jack Straw, who was appointed as Lord Chancellor on 28 June, recognises well the robust nature of the independence of the judiciary and will ensure that that independence is continued for good. I am sure that he will bring that important characteristic to the post. The noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, will know that there has been discussion on whether members of the Supreme Court could be Members of the House of Lords in the future. The White Paper on Lords reform, published in February 2007, recommended offering every retiring justice of the Supreme Court a seat in the House of Lords. The noble Baroness will know that discussions continue on Lords reform and that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister signalled in a Statement to Parliament yesterday our intention to make further progress in that area. The membership of retiring justices of the Supreme Court needs to be seen in that context. The noble and learned Lords, Lord Lloyd and Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Norton, expressed considerable doubts about the philosophy of the creation of a Supreme Court. That has been debated and disposed of and I do not want to go over old ground, but we consider that, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, the creation of the Supreme Court will achieve three main objectives: a clear separation between the judiciary and the legislature; improved access to the highest court of the land; and the renovation of a significant, but rather dilapidated, building. We believe that locating the apex of the judicial system away from the Houses of Parliament, yet right in the heart of the capital, will both symbolise its separation from the legislature and reiterate its national and international importance. As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, put it, the practical issues of a suitable building cannot simply be brushed aside. Yesterday, I spent a happy time sitting in a hearing of the Law Lords upstairs in the Committee Room. I then went across to Middlesex Guildhall to look at the building. The hearings of the Law Lords in your Lordships’ House are enormously impressive for a lay person like me. Who could not admire the rigour of the questioning or the debate and who could not be impressed by the stature of Law Lords sitting in that Committee Room? However, I sat on a very hard bench for 20 minutes; the room was very congested; the facilities for counsel are very limited; and for members of the public the access is very difficult indeed. I could not spy a cafe or a refreshment area. Although that might be seen to be secondary to the quality of the decisions made by the Law Lords, none the less the Supreme Court of this land deserves to be housed in adequate facilities. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, that Middlesex Guildhall is an interesting building, although it is not a fine building. Walking round it, as a former local authority councillor, I thought that it reflected its municipal basis and foundation. Nevertheless, having seen the designs and having met the builders, I am convinced that the sensitive approach that has been taken will enable a modest but acceptable building to be provided in which the Supreme Court can do its job effectively. I pay tribute to the many organisations—Westminster City Council, English Heritage and the designers—who have clearly put a considerable amount of time and energy into ensuring that a sympathetic design is produced. It is clear that the—I shall not call it ““renovation””—modernisation programme that took place in the 1980s in Middlesex Guildhall was typical of much modernisation in that rather disappointing decade as regards design and architecture. The work taking place will restore some parts of the Guildhall to its original glory. It may not be as glorious as one might have hoped but, in many ways, the work being undertaken will enhance Middlesex Guildhall rather than detract from its history. Questions have been raised about the cost of the establishment of the Middlesex Guildhall as the Supreme Court and the running costs, as well as how it is to be paid for. The noble and learned Lord the then Lord Chancellor updated Parliament on progress and costs on 14 June. The headline figures for set-up costs are £56.9 million, including a £36.7 million renovation cost, paid for by an annual lease charge of £2.1 million over 30 years. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, questioned the method of payment, but a lease and leaseback route is not unusual. The whole scheme, which is a design and build procurement route, enables much of the risk of the building project to be transferred to the private sector provider. Of course, I understand noble Lords questioning whether this is worth the money. It is a lot of money and, clearly, there are other necessary public expenditure services that it could have been spent on, including resources within the legal system. I fully accept that, but surely, in view of the importance of the Supreme Court and its having acceptable facilities to discharge justice, it is not a wasted figure. Of course, we must ensure that we are rigorous in controlling those costs and that the running costs of the Supreme Court are kept within balance, although noble Lords have tonight expressed rather mixed views to me on this. They have expressed concern about the cost, but also concerns about the role of the Executive in the budgeting. We clearly have to ensure—and I am sure that the Supreme Court will want to ensure—that the public have value for money. Equally, it is important that there are sufficient resources to enable the Supreme Court to do its job effectively. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, made a number of points about fees, as did other noble Lords. Noble Lords will be aware that the intention is that civil fees for the Supreme Court will be recovered, which is estimated to make up about 50 per cent of the total cost. That will be made up of fees from appellants and a contribution from national jurisdiction. The balance between these two sources has yet to be finalised. We expect the total financial burden on lower court users to be less than 1 per cent of the total cost. The rationale for that contribution is for the Supreme Court to make a contribution to the overall wealth of the law, which is then used by all civil court cases. The Supreme Court clarifies issues of law for future use. I say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that these are matters for further discussion. He suggested, and I agree with him, that we might await the appointment of the new president and chief executive. I am happy to give him the assurance that, when those persons have been appointed, the Government will be keen to discuss these matters further with them. I thank the noble and learned Lord and his colleagues for the great amount of work that they have undertaken in helping to make this translation as smooth as possible. He paid tribute to my officials, and I am grateful to him for that. In turn, from the briefings that I have had in the past two days, I can tell him that my officials well recognise the huge amount of work that he and his colleagues have put into the preparation for what I am sure will be a successful move when it takes place. He also paid tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I am happy to echo that tribute. The door was open to the noble and learned Lord and his colleagues, and I assure him that it remains open. Ministers are happy and eager to discuss on a regular basis any matters of concern that he may have. The timetable is tight, but we are confident that the Supreme Court is on target to open in October 2009 as planned. The noble Lord, Lord Norton, referred to the relationship between the Executive and the courts, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon. The Statement and the White Paper issued by the Government yesterday show a clear intent to ensure that the Executive are as fully accountable to Parliament as possible. I look forward to debating these matters in the future, but the noble Lords’ remarks must be seen in the context of the Government’s clear and stated intention to ensure that the Executive are properly accountable to Parliament, as they should be. In response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Norton, I have already said that the Government respect the independence of the judiciary and will continue to do so. I do not agree with him that moving the Supreme Court across the road to the Guildhall will in some way isolate the judiciary and undermine that independence. Surely it is the very opposite. Surely the Supreme Court will be more separately identified than the Law Lords are now. It will be more transparent. Through that, it will not invite pressure from the Executive. It will clearly identify to the public the quality and value of the work undertaken by the Law Lords—