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Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for answering my question, but it was entirely rhetorical. I meant it in the context that I agree that there should be meetings, but the Government must be able to discuss with noble Lords what happens next. Any suggestion on my part that by having a meeting the Government’s position will change would be wrong. Noble Lords will know that I am very open to any suggestion that might enable us to make progress in a different way, but I have asked my right honourable friends to consider this issue carefully, and they in turn have talked to those with whom they wished to consult in order to make their decision. If we were to seek a Motion, we would have to be candid in saying that we were doing so simply to extend ping-pong with no hope that we could do anything further. It has been our desire to get this legislation on the statute book, for all the reasons we have discussed, certainly in the time I have been dealing with the Bill and before that, when my noble friends on this side of the House dealt with it. I will be honest with your Lordships. If they send the Bill back another time, we run the risk that it will fall. Noble Lords do not want to see that happen, and neither do I, but we have no reason to extend the timetable. We are not going to move any further. Noble Lords were right to ask me to take it back to my new colleagues, and I have done that. Noble Lords were right to seek discussions; I know the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is seeing my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath tomorrow on another issue, so he will be able to have discussions. But sending the Bill back again would not make anything further happen. I am concerned for the future of the Bill. I did not know my noble friend Lord Rosser was going to speak, but he outlined well the concerns expressed in many quarters. We must look extremely carefully at the impact this legislation could have on operational issues. I will not repeat what he said, because I thought he said clearly and candidly what those issues might be. He also, supported by my noble friend Lord Lea, was keen that the Government should think carefully about having the talks that need to take place with those involved. I assure my noble friends that we wish to do that, within the context that we have conceded the principle of what we are seeking to do by taking the order-making power. My noble friends have also indicated—and I think this view is held in your Lordships’ House—that it is important to ensure that we have a full and proper debate on this subject. Although I know there are issues about secondary legislation and the ability to manoeuvre around it, that would none the less provide a further opportunity for debate. I am not trying to suggest that the discussions should not begin quickly, nor that we would seek to do other than involve noble Lords who have shown such great interest in these issues. On that basis I believe we will be able to make progress at a good pace while taking into account the points made by my noble friend Lord Rosser. At the end of the day, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice was very clear. He believed that it was right and proper to behave in a responsible manner, and that the way to achieve this was to do what the Government have done: concede the principle, take the order-making power, consider the implications, have the discussions with those who will be directly affected and bring this in at a time when it is right and proper to do so, when we understand more about the implications of what the Bill will do in terms of Crown immunity. He also felt it was important that we talk to those who are concerned about the operational impact the changes might have. The Government have gone as far as they can. I have done everything I said I would do. I have allowed your Lordships to discuss this with me at all times. To send the Bill back another time would achieve no more than to delay it even further, and I do not think that that is in the best interests of the many people who have waited a long time for this legislation and who are now watching with great interest to see it go on to the statute book. I say that in the spirit of ensuring, as I will, that the dialogues begin and the conversations go on. Contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, fears, there will be no question that we will not do what we said we would.