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Police Reform Act 2002 (Standard Powers and Duties of Community Support Officers) Order 2007

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for their contributions, and I am grateful to the first two speakers for their support for the clarifying powers in this order because we need to ensure that there is clarity. I alighted on the plea made by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, for greater clarity. He is right that we must address that not only in this order but also in future as the police community support officer system develops. It is still in the process of development. We were opposed by both parties at the outset of our journey towards developing the role of police community support officers, but both opposition parties seem to have come round to support the idea to a greater or lesser degree, which is welcome. Police community support officers are now a well established part of the policing family, and the public have come to like, trust and respect them. When I was thinking about this order, I asked a number of questions of the officials advising me to flesh out my understanding of how the system has bedded down and works. I was pleased to hear that not only are PCSOs accepted within the policing family and seen as doing a valuable job, but there have been relatively few complaints about the way in which they have gone about their work. The public seem to like them because they can see that they have a distinct role and are dealing with the low-level disorder that many of us run into from time to time—I certainly do and I am sure that other noble Lords do too. In my interaction with PCSOs, I have always found them incredibly helpful. I have no problem identifying a police officer and a police community support officer as they are badged very differently. The PCSOs I see have great big stickers on their backs telling you who and what they are. You cannot really make much of a mistake with that. The other thing that has pleased me about the PCSO programme is the way they work with police officers. To pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, I think that they have taken away a lot of the burden that was there and freed up time for more complex policing operations, and they have provided that necessary reassurance and presence on the streets. The programme is a very useful addition and supplement to the way the policing service has been developed over the past few years. I undertake that when we review, as we will continue to review, the designation of powers, we will look again at the important issue of clarity. I take very seriously the issue raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, about the different use of PCSO powers in one police force area to another. In a sense, that is why we have introduced this; so that we get a level playing field across the piece to a greater extent. I must say that one should respect the command operation in each police force area and, of course, chief constables will know better what is needed in their police force area and will want to use PCSOs in a more focused way and for different purposes. Obviously not every police force area is the same and has the same sorts of pressures. I have dealt with the issue of confusion. There is careful badging of PCSOs and most people have managed to grasp the difference, and the difference in duties and responsibilities. As I have just reflected, in some police force areas chief constables will want to use their PCSO service differently. The big emphasis for most people is in tackling anti-social behaviour, and they have made great strides in that. The neighbourhood policing programme is benefiting already from the work of PCSOs, and will carry on doing so. I pick up on the important issue of training. Of course training has to be undertaken before PCSOs embark on the exercise of their new powers and responsibilities. Chief constables are charged, in general terms of course, to make sure that that happens. I am advised that most forces are planning to carry out additional training by 1 December. In any event, chief officers must carry out this training within a reasonable period of time after 1 December, so that PCSOs are properly trained before they embark on their duties. The issue of funding was raised, and I can understand that there may be some concerns about that. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, made the point that there is a year-to-year hand and mouth issue here. The funding will not come to a conclusion when the neighbourhood policing programme ends next year. The programme will go beyond then. That was an initial date. Neighbourhood policing is not an add-on as far as we are concerned, nor is it an optional extra; it is an integral part of policing, and, as I said earlier, it is what people want. We remain committed to ensuring that it is firmly embedded in the core of policing, and we will sustain our investment beyond 2008. In due course we will put the funding into the general policing grant so that the resources will continue to be available in the longer term. That is a very important commitment. I think that I have answered all the points raised. If not, I apologise to your Lordships’ House. There was the issue of PCSOs doing some anti-terrorist work. I think that is right; it is a sensible use of their time. Clearly, one would expect—from our understanding of the way in which these lower-level powers operate—that they are taking some of the more routine work away from police constables so that they can concentrate on the major part of any terrorist event that might have taken place. I am sure that PCSOs will work very carefully with constables in exercising stop and search powers, and, where it is necessary—and I am sure we would accept that it would be necessary in some circumstances—the seizure of vehicles. I am grateful to noble Lords for their interest, support and questions. I am also grateful for the fact that we have now moved on with this debate and that there seems to be a much broader base of support for the development of PCSOs as part of the police service. On Question, Motion agreed to.