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Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

I offer strong support to the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool. I often think that if I offer strong support, it may not necessarily help his case, but I offer it none the less. He is quite right that one of the driving forces behind the Bill is not the discovery of the interesting and the helpful, but, as the Explanatory Notes on the Bill state, a desire to, "““help maintain the UK’s position as a world leader in reproductive technologies””." That does not necessarily mean that everything that follows should automatically be ticked as being a good thing—““thing”” was used in the previous group of amendments that we debated, when we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, the surprising suggestion that we should proceed with the clauses as drafted, despite the fact that many extremely eminent scientists, whom he enumerated in the letter that he read out, could not agree on what an interspecies embryo was. It sometimes strikes me that we being taken on a magical mystery tour, where we should automatically canonise what a lot of clever scientists think is a very good thing. That is why I regard the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, in relation to the authority as so important. I have only two points, both relating to the word ““transparency””, which seems to apply to almost every public appointment and every declaration of pecuniary interest, except, so far, in this area. In public appointments in the past, the great and the good have appointed more of the great and the good, provided that they are not Roman Catholic or do not agree with the ethical stance that is being put forward. This is a very serious issue, and this House will look closely at the make-up of the authority in future. It will not be possible for a closed circle of scientists and those who take one particular ethical or philosophical point of view—you can always find a jobbing philosopher to come up to support any point of view; our major universities are full of jobbing philosophers who will do that at the drop of a hat—to decide in an area such as this, which is so important to men and women. As I said earlier, I am not an expert in these areas, either ethically or scientifically; I represent, if you like, the ordinary Back-Bench Peer in the street. However, quite of lot of people in the street are concerned about what is going on. They will not wish to have a lot of self-interested scientists, self-interested and self-appointed ethicists, and a self-interested elect to the great and the good decide what is ethically right or wrong. That is why it is important that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, suggests: "““The Secretary of State… shall have a duty to ensure discussion within the Authority on ethical issues including, but not limited to the justification for repetitive experimentation””." We are not going to be able to proceed unless we have guarantees on transparency from the Minister about how these appointments will be made. It will not be acceptable to the outside world, let alone to the other place. I am very broadminded; one or two scientists are my personal friends, as are one or two philosophers. I made a point of reaching out to that community. However, it will not be acceptable for a lot of people to be on this body, appointed as scientists, who are making potentially substantial sums of money through what they do—from what they publish or make from appearances, or whatever—who can then rule in their own favour.