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Prisons: Carter Review

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, for their welcome of the Statement and report, and I thank my noble friend Lord Carter for his magnificent work in this area. I am glad that the report and Statement were produced in reasonable time; we need to ensure that that happens in the future. On the request from the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for a debate, that is, of course, a matter for the usual channels, but I would certainly welcome an early debate on this issue. I am sure that would be extremely helpful both to noble Lords and to my department in taking forward the proposals and decisions relayed in the Statement. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, that I know comparisons can be drawn between the number of prison places in this country and those in other countries, but there is a very mixed picture internationally. Some countries—the US, for example—have a much higher prison population than we do. In general, there seems to be a pattern of an increase in prison populations. I agree, though, that alongside the need for prison and the need to deal with existing issues and projections for the future, we need to have proper, rational debates about prison policy. I am sure that the arrangements that have been announced today will help us towards that. If a sentencing commission is eventually set up in the light of the work done by the working group, I have no doubt it will be able to play an important part. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, that there is no doubt about the figures and crime is an issue. There are elements of criminal activity about which we are all concerned. However, the figures show overall reductions. The fear of crime is a matter that we have to tackle—and that is being done in various ways, not least through more effective community policing, which is one way that the public can be assured—but we should not underestimate the successes that have been achieved. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness mentioned rehabilitation. The structured sentencing framework that is provided for, recommended by my noble friend Lord Carter, the assurance that we will get the match right between the sentencing framework and the actual provision of prison places, and dealing with the current issues amount to a good foundation for developing programmes of rehabilitation. We should not underestimate some of the good things that are being done in our prisons, such as the trebling of the offender learning budget and the increase in resources, on which I frequently comment, for the prison health service put in by the National Health Service. We wish to continue to build on those successes. I am tempted to say I will write to the noble Lord about the number of places. He is right that there will be an increase of 20,000 places, but we will expect a reduction of 5,000 places due to the closure of inefficient old prisons, giving a net addition of 15,000, bringing the figure to 96,000. I am happy to set that out in further detail, but that is the rough order of figures. On the role of judges in dealing with individual cases, I shall respond to the challenge set by the noble Lord. There is no question of fettering individual judges at all. I am sure the working group will pick up on the noble Baroness’s point. The sentencing framework mechanism that my noble friend has proposed will allow the total impact of sentencing decisions to be pulled together within prison and probation resources, but I reiterate that there is no intent to fetter the individual decisions of judges. A working group, led by a member of the judiciary, will take this forward. I endorse what the noble Baroness said about community sentencing. We need to do more to publicise the successes that have come about through the community sentencing options. Prisons are crowded to make best use of estates in time of tight capacity. Operational capacity decisions are made by area managers. They base them on an assessment of safety and the impact of overcrowding on a prison establishment. In public prisons, the current target for crowded conditions is for the number of prisoners held in accommodation units intended for fewer prisoners not to exceed the average population by 24 per cent. The average rate of overcrowding in public sector prisons for 2006-07 was 23.8 per cent. If the noble Lord, Lord Henley, thinks back to the prisons of the 1980s and the amount of doubling-up that took place, he might acknowledge some of the improvements that have been made. The new provision programme will certainly release some of the pressure and therefore have a positive impact on crowding. Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness were concerned that the Titan prisons would be very large and remote institutions. My noble friend has said that it is possible to build large prisons and then to split them into units, perhaps five units of 500 prisoners. However, they will draw on the best of design, new technology and support service, thereby allowing us to get the best of both worlds. It is rather like your Lordships’ House and the House of Commons being together on one estate, and the undoubted benefits of sharing resources. I am sure that I will not live that one down—I wish I hadn’t gone there. I understand the point about local prisons being close to the local community. It is a matter of concern, particularly with the current level of the prison population, but it will be possible to site Titans in areas of particular concern—London, the West Midlands and the north-west—and therefore deal with the very problem that noble Lords raised. We are watching the figures on ECL very carefully, but 11,100 early releases have freed up 1,300 spaces, and only 3 per cent of released prisoners have been recalled for failure to comply, and 1 per cent noted as reoffending, which was less than the original target figures. Diverting prisoners with mental health problems is not a way of massaging the figures, as the noble Lord, Lord Henley, suggested. We debated this matter consistently when discussing the Mental Health Act. It is clear that prisoners with severe and other mental health problems present enormous challenges. I am delighted that my noble friend has accepted the challenge to lead the review. Its significance is that it is a joint report, both to my department and the Department of Health. Through it, we will be able to get a much more co-ordinated and effective response.