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Prisons: Carter Review

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments. I, too, would welcome a debate in your Lordships' House and the noble Lord’s input into further consideration of these matters would be very welcome. That is how we want to go forward. The establishment of a working group led by a member of the judiciary signals our wish to take people with us. I have noted the noble Lord’s comments in relation to Titans. However, it is not really a question of whether a 2,500-place Titan is necessarily bad or a small unit is necessarily good. What it really depends on is the essential ingredient of leadership. I thought that the Carter report was pretty persuasive in stating that in the establishment of large sites, it is possible to get the economy of scale and the design that would enable prisons to be managed as effectively as possible, by having smaller units within the larger site. I would welcome further discussion with the noble Lord on that matter. The noble Lord raised an issue dear to his heart—the regional management structures and the different structures between different elements to the service. I am happy to debate that matter with him. He will have noted from the Statement that the regional and headquarters costs will have to be considered as well. If what he is really getting at is the need for an integrated approach at the senior management level across the various disciplines, I certainly agree with him.