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Powers of Entry etc. Bill [HL]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, on securing a slot for the Second Reading of his Bill and, in doing so, instituting this debate on the important issue of powers of entry. As a former naval person, he does not need to apologise for speaking with audacity. Naval persons are meant to speak with audacity, and I understand that he always does. I am delighted that he has not changed that today. This is an important issue, and the noble Lord’s work on it is commendable and deserves the praise of all noble Lords. I am also most impressed by his knowledge of naval flags, but will not go into detail as to my distinctive pennant. I also thank him for acknowledging how bright Labour Ministers are and for offering his labour free of charge. I know that this is an issue of continuing interest both to the noble Lord, as he explained, and to all Members of this House. That has been shown by the valuable contributions to the debate from all those speaking today. The issue of those who are authorised to exercise the powers of entry and when they may do so is already regulated by Parliament through individual statutes which grant these powers. It should be stressed that all the individual powers which the noble Lord raises in Schedule 1 to the Bill have been subject to the full scrutiny of Parliament. In addition, Section 67(9) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 requires that persons other than police officers who are charged with the duty of investigating offences or charging offenders shall, in the discharge of that duty, have regard to any relevant provision of a code. In this case, the relevant PACE code is code B: the code of practice for searches of premises and seizure of property. Chapter 6 of the code sets out considerations of the time of searches, communications with the owner or occupier including provision of a notice of powers and rights, and the conduct of searches. The code applies a degree of discretion to take account of operational requirements. For example, in terms of the time of searches, paragraph 5.2 indicates that: "““Searches must be made at a reasonable hour unless this might frustrate the purpose of the search””." The noble Lord’s Bill removes that operational discretion and instead provides that no entry shall take place on a bank holiday or public holiday and that entry shall take place only between 8 am and 6 pm between Mondays and Fridays and, for business premises only, at any other time when the business is open. Therefore, the Bill does not simply seek to consolidate the existing powers. Instead it seeks to set a prescribed limit on the times when entry may take place, the maximum number of persons permitted to enter premises, the production of documents and the seizure of documents. The role of the investigating or enforcement officer is not so precise. The objectives of the noble Lord’s Bill are laudable but, as Parliament has identified in the passing of individual statutes, there are occasions on which discrete powers and the exercise of those powers are required to deal with specific operational situations. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, referred to Clause 6 and time but, for example, colleagues in weights and measures advise that activities that might lead to fraudulent practice are often conducted outside of normal business hours, such as fraudulently preparing documents, adjusting weighing or measuring equipment, meter manufacture or preparing short-measure packages. However, the Government—and certainly this Minister—have great sympathy with the intention behind the noble Lord’s Bill. As the Prime Minister indicated in his speech on liberty made on 25 October, there is the need for additional protections for the liberties and rights of the citizen, and that one of the strongest guarantees is a clear understanding of what these rights are. That is more difficult with the very existence of hundreds of laws. The Prime Minister added that the Home Secretary is working with the Association of Chief Police Officers to examine, in the name of clarity and the greatest possible protection for the individual, the scope for bringing together in a single understandable code all existing police powers of entry. He went on to say that, "““besides the police, many other public authorities covering areas like public health, animal welfare, health and safety, and customs and excise, also have powers of entry. So, alongside the review of police powers, the Home Secretary will establish and co-ordinate a wider review of all other powers of entry””." The key objectives of the review are, first, to produce a comprehensive list of powers of entry, inspection, search and seizure to provide clarity for police, investigating agencies and, more importantly, the public; secondly, to develop a statutory framework for all existing powers and scrutiny criteria for all proposed new powers; thirdly, to enable development of public-use information material to raise awareness of businesses and individuals of their rights and expectations and what to do if those expectations are not met. This work is being taken forward in conjunction with the review of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Reference to powers of entry and whether there should be a discrete framework of powers for all agencies was included in the PACE consultation paper issued in March 2007. In response, the Bar Council indicated that: "““We consider it desirable that the powers of all those charged with investigating crime, preserving order, transporting offenders etc could be contained in one accessible piece of legislation””." The PACE review is due to complete its final stage of consultation in spring 2008. It is intended that by then we can produce proposals around powers of entry for non-police agencies, including options on a single statutory framework, safeguards for and rights of the public and, importantly, a review of the existing powers and whether they remain necessary and proportionate. The last element is a key aspect of the review and one which the noble Lord had not taken into account in determining the contents of the Bill. I hope that Members of this House, including the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, appreciate that the aim of such a review is not simply to consolidate existing legislation, but to raise awareness and understanding of what can be done and by whom and what redress the owner of the business or the occupier of the premises has if those exercising the power do not comply with their statutory function. That point was raised by a number of speakers. I shall try to address some of the detailed questions. If I miss any, I shall respond in writing, and there will an opportunity to discuss this further in Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, raised the lack of detailed knowledge of how many powers of entry and enactments there are. It is surprising that we have not had a better view in the past. That point was also touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. We now know that there are 680 powers of entry contained in 323 enactments. As the noble Lord pointed out, when the Mitchell review was carried out in 1980, it identified 700 different powers but concluded that there might be more and was unable to provide a complete list. I am glad to say that we have the information now but considering the matter was being looked at in 1980, that is not impressive. When I realised that there were 680 powers of entry and 323 enactments, I was amazed. I only became aware of the figures when I was preparing for this debate. The noble Baronesses, Lady Miller of Hendon and Lady Hanham, the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, and my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours were all surprised and amazed. Indeed, the House in general was surprised and amazed. It is clear that something needs to be done about it, and I hope that noble Lords can tell from what I have said that something is being done about it. The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, raised a number of detailed questions, and I shall respond to them in writing, where I can, and place a copy in the Library of the House. I do not think he would expect or want me to try to respond now or we would be here until tonight, if I could manage to do so. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, mentioned a bonfire of regulations, and I agree with her view that we do not seem to have moved as fast as we should have on this. I have no doubt that we need to reduce and rationalise the amount of legislation in this country. I will try to achieve that in my post, and I know that the feeling in the Government is that we must do something about this and must start making it happen. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, for his hopes for me. I hope that he did not feel that he got second best by getting a Home Office Minister rather than a Minister from another department. I think my remarks have covered the points he made. The balance between knowledge, the data we gather and how we analyse them, and freedom is interesting and difficult. My noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall pointed that out, as did my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours when he mentioned ID cards. This is a difficult issue because good data are necessary to administer and control, but people in Britain instinctively dislike data-gathering because we feel we are individuals and we do not like people intruding in our lives. I hope we will get the difficult balance right. I think we have probably got it right, but we always have to be very sensitive to it. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, mentioned the Prime Minister’s speech. Well before this debate, I discussed with the Prime Minister many of the issues that he, the noble Lord and I feel strongly about. That discussion did not take place in darkness as the noble Lord said. The depth of my knowledge of English history is not such that I can refer to a Tudor incident—Fortescue v Stonor—but I was very interested to hear about it. I hope there will be no crossbow deaths in future. Finally, to answer the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the Home Office is certainly not disinterested in this; it is very focused on it. I mentioned the important work that is going on. Again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, for the work that he has done, which has helped dramatically. I hope that I have answered most of the points raised. As I said, there is a degree of support for the direction of the Bill, but there are also substantial areas of work that require to be completed. Once we have completed those tasks, the Government intend to put the matters before the public through consultation to seek their views, and those of stakeholders and practitioners. That is the most appropriate way forward. I acknowledge the level of interest and considerable effort that the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, has given to the matter, as I have mentioned several times. If he would find it helpful, I would be very happy to arrange for him to meet with officials once work has been completed on identifying the full list of powers, the relevant officials who may exercise them and the associated protections and safeguards in place for the public.