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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, once again I have the great pleasure of welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, to our debates on the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Noble Lords hope that there will not be another criminal justice Bill in the next Session. I cannot possibly comment on that, but if there were to be, the noble Baroness’s cameo entrances would be most welcome. The police, prisoner officers and the Armed Forces—although the latter are not covered by the terms of the Motion—are critically important groups of workers to whom the Government pay tribute for the contribution they make. However, the police and prison officers are not alone in having independent pay machinery which makes recommendations to Ministers. As I explained in previous debates, this machinery was developed over 35 years by this Government and the party opposite when it was in government. It has always been clear that pay recommendations cannot be binding on the Government. It has always been the responsibility of the Executive to make decisions on pay. Both Conservative and Labour Governments have overseen such a system. I do not want to go through the list that I went through as noble Lords do not want me to do so. Nor do they want me to refer to the police arbitration tribunal decision of 1990, certain aspects of which the previous Government did not accept. Previous Governments and this one reserve the right to be flexible when considering the implications of recommendations of these independent pay bodies. That is why we do not think it right that that discretion should be subject to parliamentary approval. Parliament already has overriding oversight of departmental expenditure and we think that is the most appropriate scrutiny. Of course, I fully accept what the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Dear, had to say about the importance of trust between government employers and the services. The Government will work very hard to ensure that there is that trust. In relation, for instance, to prison officers—who we have discussed on a number of occasions—our overriding priority has to be the safety of prisoners, which is why we are taking the action that we are taking in relation to industrial action in the Prison Service. Overall, the importance of these staff cannot be underestimated, but there will always have to be discretion in relation to government decisions about the recommendations of those independent bodies. On that basis I hope that the House will accept the Motion. On Question, Motion agreed to. 285: Page 269, line 19, at end insert— ““13A After section 29J insert— ““29JA Protection of freedom of expression (sexual orientation) In this Part, for the avoidance of doubt, the discussion or criticism of sexual conduct or practices or the urging of persons to refrain from or modify such conduct or practices shall not be taken of itself to be threatening or intended to stir up hatred.”””” The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment 285 for the following Reason— 285A: Because it makes unnecessary provision.