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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

rose to move Motion J1, as an amendment to Motion J, to leave out from ““House”” to end and insert ““do insist on its Amendment No. 285””. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I feared for a few moments that the noble Lord might spoil the pleasure of this occasion for me by going on at length about the vote in the House of Commons that negatived my amendment. But I have to say that I took time off yesterday afternoon from listening to the discussions on the Lisbon treaty—a course that I heartily recommend to every Member of this House, and I refer not to the Lisbon treaty but to listening to the debate. I went into my office and turned on the television. I could not at that time see a single Member of the Labour Party on the Back Benches of the other place. Yet, when the Division Bells rang, 338 of the sheep trooped through the Lobby—300 or more never having listened to a single word of the debate. At the outset, I should point out that on this side of the House there is a free vote. We are on no three-line Whip. We are going to act according to our consciences. That is the way in which a matter such as this should be treated. Quite obviously—and this does not need to be dwelt on, because it is so obvious—my amendment would not have the effect of weakening the offence. It is, however, a useful reminder not to infer intent from mere words, but to look for proof—for instance, from the surrounding circumstances. It is said that the amendment is not necessary, but such a plea always sounds pretty feeble. If it does no harm, why all the fuss? I do not like mentioning the case of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester because I know that he finds it extremely embarrassing, but it is necessary to mention the matter because of what the police said in a formal statement at the end of the obviously lengthy police inquiry. The statement issued by the Cheshire constabulary was truly astonishing. First, it said: "““The Crown Prosecution Service has been consulted with at length””." I remind the House that it was consulted because the right reverend Prelate had had the effrontery to make some comments to his local paper about American research tending to show that some gays could be reoriented. The statement went on to say that, "““the Cheshire Police are satisfied that no criminal offences have been committed, as””—" mark these words, my Lords— "““current public order legislation does not provide specific offences based on sexuality””." The police were not saying for one moment that there was never anything in the complaint made against the right reverend Prelate. They were saying—were they not?—that, if at that time this new offence had been on the statute book, the right reverend Prelate might well have been for the high jump. There may be some—although I have never met them—who think that it would be no bad thing if people such as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester were discouraged from expressing their opinions on sexual matters, but that is not supposed to be the view of this Government. My understanding is that the Government do not wish to see discussion stifled and people harassed, bullied, interrogated and sometimes arrested for expressing their views. However, if that is so, it really is time that they did something about it. I now turn to the Government’s undertaking to issue guidance. Let us be plain: the Government can issue guidance at any time they want and they do not have to get permission from Parliament to do so, but they cannot say that guidance will avoid a repetition of the scandals that we have often referred to, such as the Lytham couple being interrogated and bullied for daring to question the council’s gay rights policy. When we last debated this matter, I pointed out that for years guidance has been available to help the police. It was there to help them to apply the present Public Order Act, which, I remind the House, already contains provisions not altogether dissimilar from the provisions in this Bill. For some time, it has been unlawful to use threatening, abusive and insulting words or behaviour, particularly when there is hostility on grounds of sexual orientation. That is the present law. Therefore, for a long time there has been guidance to help the police in circumstances not at all dissimilar from those envisaged by the present offence. There was already a pretty high threshold for the offence—and a lot of good that guidance has done! Does anyone in his right mind think that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, when commenting to his local paper on the matters that I have referred to, was using, "““threatening, abusive or insulting words””?" I am quoting from the Public Order Act. Yet off rushed the police, in spite of guidance, to consult the CPS, which, disturbingly, did not have the sense to send them packing. I do not understand how the Minister can keep on talking about the efficacy of guidance when the present guidance issued by the CPS is seriously defective, as I pointed out in our previous debate, when the Government have not done us the courtesy of showing us a draft of the guidance that they have in mind and when they have not told us how, if at all, it would differ from, on the one hand, existing guidance or, on the other, my amendment. Why, if the guidance would not differ significantly from my amendment, is it better to have it outside the Bill rather than in it? There is another important matter. How can the Minister overlook the obvious danger of having a free speech clause in relation to the religious hatred offence but not here? It is not playing straight with the House to say that the inconsistency can be overlooked because the Government never wanted a free speech clause in relation to the religious hatred offence in the first place. The other day they were saying, ““Well, you mustn’t think anything about that because it was forced on us against our wishes””. If that is right, surely their duty must be either to accept our amendment or to set out to repeal the religious hatred free speech clause. Instead, they are content to be responsible for a glaring and dangerous inconsistency. I ought to finish with the argument advanced last time by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, which is that it is clear what the prosecution has to prove and that a properly directed jury would have no difficulty applying the clause correctly. That is right but it misses the point entirely. When people are harassed, interrogated and arrested as a result of wrongful action by the police as they follow up what is often a malevolent complaint—such as the one against Mr Hurst, who was handing out leaflets inviting people to his church’s Easter service—it is little comfort to know that it is very unlikely that a conviction would have followed. We on this side of the House are aware of the evils of homophobia and understand why the Government wish to put this new offence on the statute book. Let it go on the statute book but let us also be sure that, as a society that values free speech, we are not unwittingly licensing those who wish to suppress it. I beg to move. Moved, as an amendment to Motion J, to leave out from ““House”” to end and insert ““do insist on its Amendment No. 285””.—(Lord Waddington.)