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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, I would not normally have spoken to this particular part of the criminal justice Bill, having spoken to just about every other part, but there are several points to be made. My noble friend Lord Lester has drawn, I believe, too clear a distinction between race and religion on the one hand and sexuality on the other. The problem with the area of sexual orientation is that it enters into faith and belief. Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Alli, have spoken eloquently about the very high threshold. I probably accept that point, and that the threshold here is significantly higher than that being used by the police under public order legislation. But we know that religious beliefs are deeply held and that ultimately they are predicated on faith. We know also that faith is just that: it is faith. My concern has to do with the chilling effect of leaving the clause as it stands. I absolutely support this clause but I subscribe to the view just outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, that no one is talking about touching the clause itself, but about building in an additional protection. In the other place yesterday the Minister repeated over and over again that the additional protection was unnecessary and that it was otiose. It may well be unnecessary in terms of the threshold needed to bring forward a prosecution. That is accepted, but the point is that in terms of freedom of expression, the lack of this additional protection may well have a chilling effect. Those noble Lords who know me know also that I am not religious. I am a Muslim, but on the whole I describe myself as a secular Muslim. My Muslim co-religionists often tell me that that is a contradiction in terms, and it may well be, but I think that what I am trying to say is that it must be accepted by those of us who do not have deeply held religious convictions that other people perhaps do have them. It may be that other people, following their religious convictions, may speak of things that we may not share but which are deeply held by them. However, they have the right to hold those religious convictions, and it is that right which I seek to uphold. I do not say that I support absolutely the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. In fact I do not think I could ever support some of the policy directions emanating from where the noble Lord comes, but at this stage I am minded to abstain rather than vote for either case. We have to be very mindful of this chilling effect. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, again mentioned the violence used against gay people. We all understand where he is coming from; he is absolutely right to draw our attention to those concerns. But we cannot make good law on the basis of individual cases. We on these Benches have argued that point in relation to extreme pornography. We know that our clauses, which would have provided a defence in freedom of expression cases, were lost because of individual cases. That is the wrong way to make law. I hear the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Smith, but I think that all sides would concede that the clause as it stands will provide protection in those regards. If the clause is not amended, those with concerns about it as it stands would say that there will be a loss of free expression.