---

Saving Gateway Accounts Bill

Not for the first time in one of these debates, the hon. Gentleman makes a precise, targeted point of exactly the type that I hope he will make more of if he sits on the Committee that considers the Bill. That is precisely what I was driving at. People in those circumstances—not committing fraud, or doing anything improper—could qualify for support in a way that most of us would regard as an inappropriate use of taxpayers' money. He alluded to my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Steve Webb); I do not know the details of the case, but that was another example of someone who was doing nothing improper, and all it did was serve to underline the fact that the basis on which tax credits were available to British citizens were too loosely drawn by the Government, and went too high up the income scale. He underlined the failings in the Treasury's initiative. That was precisely what I was driving at, and I am grateful for the intervention. Earlier today, I showed a delegation of members of the Taunton Royal British Legion around the House. I told them that I was hoping to participate in the debate, and I told them about the nature of the Bill. Not all of them are of working age any longer, so some of the legislation will not apply to them directly, but they made the good point that they thought it unreasonable that the minimum starting point for premium bond saving was £100. I confess that I was not aware of that. I know that it is not directly related to the Bill, but it is indirectly related to it. They said that they would like to encourage saving—for example, by giving their grandchildren some premium bonds as a Christmas or birthday present—but were not in a position to give £100 of premium bonds. While considering the Bill, the Government need to examine other ways in which people on lower incomes may be prevented from saving or from participating in savings initiatives. Finally, and directly related to the Bill, I wish to raise a small, procedural point. There is cross-party support for the Bill from the three largest parties and from the nationalist and Northern Ireland parties, but that does not mean that the Government should hope to pass a Bill that is so loosely drawn that it leaves questions unanswered and leaves things too open to interpretation. A number of matters are to be left to regulations, with 29 separate delegated powers in a Bill of only 32 clauses. I have a list of them, which is not exhaustive, and I might not even read to the end of it depending on how I judge the mood of other Members present. If the Bill is passed unamended, the Government will be able, by regulation, to change the rules governing the issuance of a notice of eligibility; change the rules governing the approved institution criteria used by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs; impose infinite compliance requirements on accounts in order for them to be saving gateway accounts; limit the size of monthly deposits; give HMRC unlimited powers to impose conditions or withdraw approval; design a true declaration to be included with each account application; decide on procedure and eligibility for account transfers; decide the level of the maturity payment; decide how long the account provider has to pay the account holder at the end of the maturity period; impose requirements relating to statements; decide when an account is no longer a savings gateway account; require account holders to submit returns to HMRC and decide on the time frame and content of those returns; force repayment if HMRC has overpaid to the saver; set a level of interest on payments to and by HMRC and the circumstances in which that will occur; exempt savings and payments from capital gains tax and income tax, and so on. I am already getting bored of reading those out, but my point is that a lot of us will be uneasy about passing legislation if we are just assured by Treasury Ministers that everything will be okay, as we are all reasonable people who agree on a sensible way to go forward. That would be a recipe for problems down the line and our getting letters from constituents a few years hence asking why certain matters were not examined in greater detail during the passing of the Bill. The onus is on us to ensure in Committee that, although we share the Government's laudable objectives, the savings system is as practical, efficient and workable as possible, and the best possible value for taxpayers' money.