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Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (No. 2) Order 2009

Yes, but the noble Lord’s major criticisms of what will obtain under the new provision, obtain under the existing provision. If he is extolling the fact that under the new arrangements prisoners may face a discontinuity in training and education if they move from Wales to other parts of the United Kingdom, that is a constant complaint about provision in England. There is exactly that difficulty of sustaining a coherent programme of training when prisoners are moved with greater frequency than we would wish. They are moved for all sorts of reasons, such as the utilisation of the prison estate, where inevitably priorities on how that space is used apply and the consequences are often the disruption of prison education and training. I do not see why this arrangement can be castigated for that. After all, does the noble Lord think that in Wales there will be compulsory teaching of the Welsh language to English prisoners, or does he think that the Welsh will engage in Latin or Greek? They will not. The Welsh prisons will provide programmes that are pretty close to the basic programmes provided in English prisons. I hate to state the obvious, but a very high percentage of the people in prisons are illiterate and innumerate. Those basic skills have to be addressed. In our society, there is a great deal of disadvantage to people who are illiterate and innumerate, even if they are law-abiding citizens, as regards obtaining jobs. To come out of prison and to be in that category is a double disadvantage and provides a real problem in terms of their ability to earn an honest living after they have paid their dues to society. The Welsh provision will be very similar to the English provision, because it has to concentrate on the real needs of prisoners. An added dimension to literacy which we have to address today is computer literacy. Prisoners and those in wider society who are not computer literate suffer very significant disadvantages when they apply for jobs. On the idea of transfers being the responsibility of those who have a wider education, training and skills responsibility in Wales and leading to some distorted curriculum, which will mean that any transfer of prisoners between England and Wales would be to their disadvantage, it would be no more to their disadvantage than the constant transfer of people from England to Wales and through all the major establishments in England. That is a well-known and historic problem. It receives insufficient attention across the whole of the prison estate, especially if we are serious about how we prepare prisoners for earning a living once they have discharged their responsibility to the wider society. I assure Members of the Committee—I would not have been prepared to present the order if I had not been assured myself—that Welsh Ministers, seeking to improve the quality of learning and therefore employment opportunities of prisoners when they eventually leave, will of course need to achieve consistency with England through a core curriculum. This is partly because of the facts that the noble Lord mentions. I freely recognise that for a high percentage of prisoners in Wales, their only connection with Wales is that they are in a Welsh prison; they are English and have lived in England. That also works the other way around, of course: well over 1,000 Welsh people are in English prisons. Unless we get elements of co-ordination in the development of skills under the new arrangements we would be creating an unfortunate disadvantage to prisoners, but the Prison Service is well aware of that under its present UK operation. The devolution to Welsh Ministers will offer them the ability to concentrate on a strategy that ensures that what they provide for Welsh people in Wales will also feed into the work done in the prisons for which they are responsible. The noble Lord also raised the question of the Parc private prison at Bridgend. It is important because it takes a substantial percentage of the prison population in Wales; I do not underestimate its significance. However, although Welsh Ministers will have to work somewhat differently with a private prison because of its corresponding independence, they will be able to influence learning provision in Parc in line with the other four public prisons. The noble Lord will appreciate that Parc might be private, but it does not isolate itself from the wider prison provision for obvious reasons. A proportion of the budget transferred to Wales will be used to fund the costs for learning, the costs for the library service and the salary for the learning and skills manager posts in Her Majesty’s Prison at Parc. The needs of Parc, considered within a framework of resources necessary for adequate education and training, are taken into account. Resources will be specifically allocated to Parc in those terms. I will reflect on what the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, said. I reflect whenever he is critical of me. I would not say that I have sleepless nights, largely because he usually attacks me during the day and I have time to recover before it gets late. Nevertheless, whenever he is critical, I am concerned. However, I hope that he will also reflect on my remarks and rejoinders. I would not be prepared to put this order forward if I thought that it was just an arbitrary transfer to Wales. It is a consistent, applied policy in which Welsh Ministers enjoy the power to exercise their due authority and influence in Wales. It is properly applied in this case. Motion agreed.