---

Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

I congratulate all those who have taken part on an absolutely fascinating debate which has spanned the full spectrum of opinion regarding whether we should have clearly defined standards or a large amount of flexibility. I shall endeavour to address all the contributions. I do so with trepidation as two former education Ministers have entered the debate in addition to my noble friend Lord Layard. I used to wake up worrying about these kinds of scenarios. My noble friends’ amendment sets out five specific requirements for the SASE. I wholeheartedly support the intention behind their amendment, which I believe seeks to establish what we all want. I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, has come back and embraced quality again, because that is what we all want. We want to protect the integrity of the brand. We want to ensure that young people are provided with relevant valuable training which not only forms the basis for the job they may currently be doing, although that may satisfy one group of them, but will produce a productive and successful future career. That is a common goal in what we want from apprenticeships. It really is a joy to behold when you see it working well—when you see the development of young people, and some not so young people, and find them going back into learning again. There is then no holding them back. There is a real shared consensus on the objectives. I suspect that the problem will be how we get there. One of the difficulties is that we talk about apprenticeships as if there were just one version of an apprenticeship. There is not. My noble friend Lord Layard, whom I esteem highly, referred to serious apprenticeships, but they are all serious apprenticeships. It does not matter whether they take place in Tesco or McDonalds or at the high end of British Aerospace, they are all serious apprenticeships. They are just addressing different workplace environments. We have to remember that. In my remarks I want to address the genuine objectives described by my noble friends Lord Layard and Lady Blackstone and other noble Lords and pick up some of the points made. First, my noble friend Lord Layard described merged qualifications as the slippery slope. We hope that it will not be a slippery slope. Although there will be merged qualifications, I assure him and others who expressed a concern that the competence component and the knowledge component of the merged qualifications will be a separate assessment. We understand the importance of ensuring that we address both aspects of that. My noble friend also made a reference to functional level 1, saying that everyone has achieved it. Actually, I wish that that were the case. I was at an academy recently, and there was a stall for young people who were interested in electrical apprenticeships. I spoke to the person who was supervising it and explaining to young people what it entailed. His comment to me, out of their earshot, was that it was unfortunate that many of the young people interested in the apprenticeship had not yet met the basic standards of functional literacy and numeracy. So we are making strides, but we must not underestimate that. Many young people will need help before they can embark upon an apprenticeship, which we aim to give them. I will come back to some of the other points. The provisions in Part 1 are the key building blocks that will deliver an outcome of quality and relevant valuable training. But these structures need to be flexible to allow for the apprenticeship programme to develop over time. That is why, rather than dealing in the Bill with the matters referred to in the amendment, our firm intention is to deal with them through the specification of apprenticeship standards in England, or SASE. During the consultation on the SASE, one of the areas that attracted the most attention was the issue of guided learning hours. We have been throwing terms around rather indiscriminately in this debate. We have a requirement of 280 guided learning hours from the previous Act, when we raised the participation rate, but that merely said "guided learning hours" and made no reference to whether they should take place either on or off the job; whereas, of course, my noble friend Lord Layard proposes a minimum of 250 guided learning hours off the workstation. I assure my noble friends that we are absolutely committed to ensuring that all apprenticeship frameworks contain a minimum specified number of guided learning hours. There remains debate to be had about the definition of guided learning hours and how many guided learning hours apprentices should be expected to undertake overall and away from the workstation. I commend my noble friend Lord Layard in that he was trying to be helpful in talking about, for instance, apprentices receiving new material online at their regular computer. I saw that as a helpful acknowledgement, addressing a real situation. We are currently working through the responses to the consultation on these questions, and I will certainly take careful account of the views expressed through their amendment by my noble friends in that context. I do not accept the inference of Amendment 58A tabled by the Conservative Front Bench that it would impose an unreasonable and inflexible burden on employers to include in the SASE a minimum requirement for off-the-job training. It would depend on the minimum. It should be a core part of any apprenticeship, and it is the minimum that anyone embarking on an apprenticeship should have a right to expect. I shared the noble Lord’s concern about the question of too much rigidity and the important point he made when he said that we must be careful that we do not end up constructing apprenticeships where employers say, "Quite frankly, it’s not worth the trouble; I don’t want to do it". I am as conscious of that as he is. That is why I recently met both representatives of the CBI and a wide range—and I mean a wide range—of employers. During that discussion, it became evident that there was no clear understanding about what we meant by "off the job". When we started to explore it, there was much more receptiveness to the idea that they probably could meet a basic minimum; notice that I have not said what that should be, because we are talking through that. There is a balance to be struck here, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said that he sort of hovers between the two. He feels that there is currently no requirement on employers. The vast majority of employers take this seriously. We have very few examples of employers taking on apprentices and then not honouring their obligations. Nevertheless, we have to take into account what we feel should be a reasonable set of minimum standards that could be relevant across a wide range of apprenticeships. Most of the more traditional apprenticeships that we talk about will easily meet those requirements by a mixture of day release, weekly release or online learning. I am still concerned to ensure that we do not imagine that all apprenticeships are of one kind. I stress how important this consultation is. We were there to hear their views on several issues in the consultation, but specifically on the proposals on guided learning hours. As a result of those discussions, I am confident that we will be able to reach a compromise that addresses the points raised by the contrasting amendments that we have debated today. Just as an aside, we also discussed whether ICT should form a part of basic skills and there is a possibility that we might even reach an agreement on that, provided we set the right levels. On the second limb of my noble friends’ amendment, I am happy to confirm that the SASE will make it clear that all apprenticeship frameworks must contain a competence-based and a knowledge-based element. In the vast majority of instances these will be undertaken as two separate qualifications. However, it is worth noting that with the creation of the qualifications and credit framework, there will be an opportunity to simplify the existing qualifications system by including both elements in one qualification to make the system more flexible and responsive to employer need, while maintaining quality through separate assessment. The framework has been applauded by employers for giving them the kind of modular qualifications that they want. It also embraces NVQs, for which I share the enthusiasm of the noble Lord, Lord Baker. We took a long time to establish NVQs but we need to retain them. I am also happy to endorse the principle that apprentices should be encouraged to improve their skills in English and mathematics. Every sector requires a varying level of competence in English and maths. In many cases an apprentice’s skills in these areas will develop as a natural consequence of being in the workplace on a daily basis. In other areas, more formal instruction and qualifications in English and mathematics may be more appropriate. We prefer not to be overly prescriptive. Some apprenticeships, including all at level 3, will require level 2 English and maths, for example. Requiring apprentices to pass particular exams could have the unintended effect of discouraging young people from taking up the valuable opportunities provided by apprenticeships, particularly those for whom the main attraction is to focus on gaining the sector-specific knowledge and competences that apprenticeships provide. It is about getting the balance right. It is better for the employer and the individual to decide upon the precise nature and level of English and mathematics knowledge included in the apprenticeship. Such flexibility creates opportunities for learners with learning difficulties or disabilities. On the fourth limb of their amendment, I can also reassure my noble friends that functional skills in English and maths at level 2 will form part of an advanced apprenticeship if the individual has not already reached that standard. I can reassure my noble friends that every apprentice should have a mentor. We propose that the prescribed terms of the apprenticeship agreement would require that the level of mentoring support is set out as part of that agreement. I can speak only from my own experience as an apprentice. Sometimes you had more than one mentor as you progressed through various parts of the business. I want now to pick up some of the other points that were made. I have already made some reference to the question of those learners with learning difficulties and the requirement for literacy and numeracy qualifications. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, was worried that the requirement might put off some people in those circumstances. Our view is that all apprentices should be encouraged to improve functional English and maths. We are considering, with the Special Educational Consortium, the RNIB and others how frameworks can be made more accessible and meet an accessibility benchmark. We are working hard on that area. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, was concerned about how you would deliver targets if you do not ensure that there is sufficient flexibility for employers. There is flexibility for sector skills councils to set framework requirements in line with their employer needs, subject to meeting the specifications and standards framework, obviously. We are looking at how much flexibility can be given on guided learning. We certainly do not think that we are dumbing down progression by having only a level 1 requirement for functional skills. Level 1 is the minimum, but employers and sector skills councils have flexibility to raise that level where they deem it appropriate, depending on the demands of the framework. I have dealt with the question of merging qualifications. This has been a very important debate. I should stress that there are two sides to the question. There are those who say beware of too much rigidity as that will have unintended consequences by deterring employers, and then there is the passionate plea from my noble friend Lord Layard, supported by others, that we must have standards that encourage people to develop so that they really will progress as a result of their apprenticeship. We are still in that consultative mode and will come back, for example, to the question of guided learning hours off the workstation. That is a genuine commitment and we have picked up the importance felt about mentoring. With those assurances, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw the amendment.