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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Social Welfare) Order 2009

When I saw the Committee assembling for the debate today, I confess that I felt a little daunted. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, may refer to your Lordships as "the usual suspects"; I prefer to look at the Committee and realise that we have the cream of the Welsh political establishment in the Room and that my first foray into this field is likely to be a somewhat uncertain one. I am grateful, though, for the warm welcome that every speaker has extended to me. I think that I shall come to love LCOs in due course, but I was as mystified by a first reading of the brief and the order, as were many of your Lordships. It has been a fascinating and informative debate, and I have been heartened by the contributions that have been made to it for two reasons. First, there is a broad consensus, cutting across party lines, in favour of conferring competence on the National Assembly in respect of carers, as set out in the draft carers LCO, and for making the technical change to exceptions in Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act, as set out in the exceptions LCO. Secondly, there is a great deal of knowledge and appreciation in this House, particularly among Members of the Committee here today, of the Welsh devolution settlement in general and the mechanisms of the Government of Wales Act in particular. That knowledge helps to ensure that the process of devolving legislative powers to the National Assembly for Wales runs smoothly, and it has certainly helped me today in enhancing my own previously sketchy knowledge; I now have a rather greater understanding of the devolution settlement as it applies to Wales. I shall respond to a number of the questions that were put to me during the debate. The noble Lords, Lord Glentoran, Lord Roberts of Conwy and Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred to the need for special treatment for carers in Wales. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, referred to the fact that Wales has a higher proportion of carers than any region in England. It also has the highest proportion of people with limiting long-term illness and a level of permanent sickness and disability in the economically inactive population between 16 and 74 than any region in England. Those figures alone suggest that a different approach is needed in tackling the intensity of these issues in Wales. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about compensation for public bodies and local authorities. The extent to which we decide to provide local authorities and the National Health Service with additional resources is a consideration for when the measure is developed. There is a track record which I hope will go some way to reassuring him. For example, we fully reimburse local authorities for changes that were made to the fairer charging guidance on non-residential social care in 2007. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, also asked about cross-border issues. The Assembly could legislate in relation to public authorities in Wales, but not in England, and it could legislate to support carers living in England but caring for someone who lives in Wales. It could also legislate to support carers who live in Wales but care for someone living in England. I understand that the Welsh Assembly Government intend to develop a protocol on cross-border services for carers, so this is essentially a matter for them. I also understand that a cross-border health service protocol is already successfully in operation. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, returned to a theme that I know he has pursued before in these debates, because I read what he said in the debate on 19 June on the red meat order. He believes that the whole LCO process is much too slow and he would like it to go much faster; he expressed similar sentiments on that occasion as well. I do not think that he is being entirely fair. The process of conferring legislative competence on the National Assembly through LCOs and framework powers in UK Bills has so far delivered law-making powers in some 39 areas of policy. I agree with him that the start was a fairly slow one but, to begin with, it is inevitable that this process will take time. As more LCOs come forward—others are being proposed now on which we shall deliberate in the autumn—the process is picking up. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, who looks forward to the day when more and more competences are transferred to the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Assembly. My noble friend Lord Rowlands chided me and the Government for having the temerity to describe the exceptions order as technical. I apologise to him for that. I did not mean that the order is technical; I meant to imply that the subject matter is pretty technical. I am delighted that a tribute, entirely deserved, has been paid to him for his work on the Constitution Committee, and to the other members of the committee. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, described him as a constitutional eagle, a badge which I think he will wish to wear in future. Section 95 of the Government of Wales Act states that a LCO can also amend that enactment itself. This matter was discussed with the legal adviser to the committee and the legal adviser was satisfied with the vires to make this particular LCO. However, I can certainly give him the assurance that the Government will give careful attention to all recommendations made as a result of pre-legislative scrutiny. We are always mindful of the need to avoid omnibus orders. He made a good point and it is one which we certainly take on board. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, asked what measures have sprung from the consolidation of matters at the end of each term. The answer is that the vulnerable children LCO has given rise to both the children and families measure and to the education measure currently being considered by the Assembly. Consideration of matters is, of course, an issue not for us in this House but for the Welsh Assembly Government. I would like finally to say how much I agreed with what the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, and my noble friend Lord Jones said about the process in which we are engaged. The phrase used by my noble friend Lord Jones about these being pointers to the future government of Wales is very good. As I indicated at the beginning of my closing remarks, these are important stepping stones towards the implementation of the devolution settlement. I am not able to answer the question about the future of Welsh Members of Parliament, nor of the Secretary of State, and I suspect that my noble friend did not expect me to.