---

Welfare Reform Bill

I do not think that the position of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, is being lost in this; the decision has been postponed. He might be upset about that but he may find himself in a position to do something about it in the not-too-distant future. After all, as my noble friend just said, these are pilots. The key difference in all this—it is not yet properly understood outside the precincts of Parliament—is that there are clear differences between how people look at this progressive conditionality that the report of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, first enabled and Professor Gregg’s report then fleshed out. You may believe that this is a penal set of sanctions to force people back into work off benefits; you think, "This is a cost-saving measure that will be tough, but people better shape up or they’ll suffer". Alternatively, if you put the Freud report and the Gregg report together and, like me, you are an optimist—if you are a Liberal Democrat you have to be an optimist—you may reach a different conclusion. If personalised conditionality can be deployed sympathetically, without sanctions, as my noble friend said, you are in a different place altogether. You want to support people and you do not want to leave people out of the labour market for a long time. I was a slightly lone voice advocating Professor Gregg’s report. I think that the Government suffered from the spin that some Ministers put on it when it came out, which I do not think its contents merited. Four bullet points from the report state what Professor Gregg thinks personalised conditionality means for the progression-to-work group, which is the group of people about whom we are talking. He says that conditionality would, first, ""Reflect the claimant’s co-ownership of the return to work process"." He goes on to say that it needs to, ""Be tailored to their capability and built around their circumstances"." Thirdly, it should, ""Be based on activity that supports the claimant’s own route back to work"," and, finally, it has to, ""Link up with effective support"." If all these are delivered—and it is a big "if"—we should be grabbing it with both hands for the progression-to-work group. The difficulty is that the Government have still not entirely made the case to the public that that will happen. There is still a feeling that it will be the hardship regime that people fear. Some of us have had the advantage of seeing the helpful letter that the Secretary of State has just written to the chairman of the Work and Pensions Select Committee, which gave more comfort that we are more likely to get the Gregg version of events. I do not know how many pilots there will be, although I guess that there will be two or three and it would be helpful to know where they are likely to be. I also have an incidental question about Scotland. We have won protections through helpful government amendments in Committee, meaning that if no childcare is available there cannot be sanctions. I still hope that if a pilot area happened to be in Scotland—I suspect that none will—in the three-year or five-year period during which these pilots are rolled out and evaluated, the availability of childcare will be equalised throughout the United Kingdom. It would be unfair if it was not. If we get the pilots evaluated, it will become clear whether Professor Gregg’s vision or the hardship regime is delivered. My noble friend is absolutely right and I come in behind the point of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, that, if this turns out to be an oppressive hardship regime where people are being sanctioned and nothing much is being achieved for the progression back to work, we will vote in big numbers to ensure that these pilots are not rolled out across the United Kingdom. I console the noble Lord, Lord Freud, with the thought that maybe he is too new and enthusiastic and expects things to happen too quickly. There may only be a delayed decision or vote but, speaking for myself, I am willing to take that risk. I do so in the earnest hope that Professor Gregg’s vision is delivered, and nothing else.