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Marriage (Wales) Bill [HL]

My Lords, I suppose I should declare an interest as I live in Gresford, which is in the Church in Wales but on the border. I have never found any particular difficulty in marriages there. It was in 1985 that Lord Gibson-Watt introduced a Marriage (Wales) Bill in order to ensure that the banns could be given in adjacent parishes. That was also to bring the Church in Wales in line with the Church of England. He commented at that time that there was no representative of the Liberal Benches present, which he thought unusual since it was, of course, Lloyd George who drove through the disestablishment of the church. Nor was there any bishop present, either. The matter was simply decided between the Front Benches of the party in power and the Loyal Opposition. I am here today to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, on introducing the Bill. He said that it requires an Act of Parliament. Back in 1912, Lloyd George said: ""What happened to the Church which was independent in doctrine, in ritual, in discipline, and which was absolutely self-governed? It became a State Church. Its very prayers are settled by Act of Parliament. I believe that purgatory was abolished by the casting vote of the Speaker. You cannot discharge a transgressing clergyman without the authority of the Act of Parliament. The ritual, doctrine, rubrics, everything of that kind in the Church, are matters for the control of Parliament, and according to Professor Maitland that happened at the Reformation"." Lloyd George was very concerned with where church property should go. I declare a further interest. It was Welsh Church Act funds that put me through my training to become a solicitor, so I have something to thank Lloyd George for in that respect. What he said about the transfer of property is worth repeating. He asked about what happened after the Reformation, Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries. He said: ""Property which was used for the sick, for the lame, for the poor, and for education, where has it gone to? Part of it went to the Navy, and part of it to the privy purse of the Crown, but the bulk of it went to the founders of great families. It is one of the most disgraceful and discreditable records in the history of this country. I do not want to go into all these cases, but I am bound to take note of one, because I think it is specially offensive. The Duke of"—" I will not name the Duke in question— ""issues a circular applying for subscriptions to oppose this Bill, and he charges us with the robbery of God. Why, does he not know—of course he knows—that the very foundations of his fortune are laid deep in sacrilege, fortunes, built out of desecrated shrines and pillaged altars"".—[Official Report, Commons, 16/5/1912; col. 1323-25.]" We do not make speeches like that any more, unfortunately, except in certain parts of Wales, as I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, will confirm.