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Northern Ireland Assembly Members Bill [HL]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that brief introduction to the Government’s amendments. She indicated in Grand Committee that she was listening to the mood of the House. The mood then, and before that at Second Reading, was clear. The issue of double mandates—or double-jobbing as it is known in the Province—is a potent one. Of the 18 MPs who Northern Ireland constituencies send to Westminster, 15 are also Members of the Assembly—16 before Strangford became vacant. The problems inherent in such a doubling-up of roles are well known, and the noble Baroness has rightly taken account of them. In Grand Committee, the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, made the pertinent remark that far too little new political talent comes out of Northern Ireland because the seats are already occupied. I made the point in Committee that the demands of the parliamentary timetable mean that it is unlikely that an MLA can be an MP at the same time effectively. Regardless of how dedicated they might be, the positions simply demand too much to be combined in one person. These are not new arguments and the parties here and in Stormont are all familiar with them. All parties agree that the practice should come to an end. The Kelly report, which the Government have committed themselves to implementing, strongly recommends an end to the practice of double-jobbing. We on these Benches, along with our partners in the UUP, took the view that there was no good reason to put it off until 2015. We had an opportunity in this Bill to do something about double-jobbing, so we tabled our amendments in Grand Committee. Those amendments are still on the Marshalled List today. I thank the noble Baroness for having the courage to concede the point by bringing forward her own amendments. That is not to say that I think the Government’s proposals are perfect. My brief says that the amendments are silent on allowances. I think that is wrong and that the noble Baroness explained where allowances fitted in. However, a little clarity when she sums up would be helpful. The noble Baroness explained that if an MLA is also an MP, he still has constituents to serve, even if he is not getting both salaries, and therefore needs his allowance to be continued. Noble Lords will be aware of the view that the public take of politicians’ allowances and expenses. I wonder if the new dispensation under the Government’s proposals will escape the public’s notice or meet with a little warmth. My brief also says that the Government’s amendments do not mention pensions. However, the noble Baroness did mention pensions and I am quite clear where the Government stand on pensions. I thank her for that clarification. Having looked at what the Government’s amendments do not deal with, I will now turn to what they do. Amendment 1 deals with MLAs who are also MPs and who are eligible to receive a Westminster salary. If a person falls into that category—and not all MPs from Northern Ireland are eligible to take a Westminster salary—his MLA salary will drop to zero, although a separate salary is still payable if he is a Minister in the Assembly. Therefore, he will receive his full Back-Bench MP’s salary, expenses and allowances for Westminster, Stormont administrative allowances, and possibly a ministerial salary. The noble Baroness expects that the disincentive of losing the Stormont MLA salary will be enough to encourage a double-jobber to step down from one legislature or the other. That, at least, is her hope. It is the intention of our amendments to make it clear that future Governments will not tolerate double-jobbing in Northern Ireland. Our Amendment 2, which I moved in Committee, would go further. It would withhold all salary and expenses from an MLA until he stepped down as an MP. It was not—and I wish to make this clear in the light of some criticism of the amendment in Grand Committee—ever designed to dictate to the electorate who they could and could not vote for. Our amendment, like the Government’s, is an incentive. It is a firmer incentive than the Government are offering, but we are both looking to reach the same ends. Our approach has never been to single out one party for favour or discrimination, but has been one of principle. We wish to see the constituents of Northern Ireland properly and fully represented in all the forums in which they are entitled to be. We wish to see a fair and wise use of public funds to remunerate the elected representatives. It is because we have held fast to those principles that I tabled the amendments in Grand Committee, retabled them on Report and was prepared to test the will of the House on them. I believe that the mood of the House was behind those principles. However, the Government have tabled their amendments and we must give them due consideration. I have already said that they are not perfect, and explained why; but I recognise that the noble Baroness and the Government have made an effort to meet us. She and her colleagues, here and in another place, are genuine in seeking the same ends as we do, which will benefit Northern Ireland. I told the noble Baroness in Grand Committee that I would not relish the prospect of defeating the Government on a Northern Ireland issue. We on these Benches have at all times sought to be helpful to the Government when dealing with Northern Ireland. We have engaged with them constructively and in a spirit of bipartisanship; and over the years that I have been doing this job, I have made many friends on the government Benches, as I hope the noble Baroness will agree. I wish to continue to do so, and because I recognise the work that the noble Baroness and her officials have done, I will support her amendments and will not press those in my name. However, I will make one final short comment. I will remind the Minister's noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, of his time in Northern Ireland, when he was one of our best Secretaries of State. I will politely ask him to cast his mind back and remember the dangers of attempting to play party politics at Westminster with Northern Ireland.