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Bribery Bill [HL]

My Lords, speaking as the Lords member of the Intelligence and Security Committee—I have now also been nominated for the Joint National Security Committee which is to be set up between the two Houses—I am in a very privileged position, as all noble Lords here are aware. We are privy to a great deal of information regarding the operations of the security services. I can therefore speak with the knowledge but, unfortunately, without being able to go into too much detail. When I read the proceedings in Committee, I was appalled at the suggestion that Clause 12 should be deleted. As I understand it, we are not now considering that, which I am very pleased about. However, the alternative that has been put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Goodlad, is also unacceptable for a number of reasons. My understanding is that the first Joint Committee on this corruption Bill ruled out the question of authorisation for a number of reasons. No doubt my noble friend Lady Whitaker and others can confirm that. The most important reason for ruling it out is how impractical it would be. The volume of authorisations would be enormous. I know that some Members who have been Ministers, or Home, Defence or Foreign Secretaries, will understand the huge volume that there would be in relation to authorisation where agents, as part of their duty, have to make payments to contacts to get information which can be vital for national security, the prevention of terrorism and a whole range of other things that are in the national interest. There would be hundreds and thousands of pre-authorisations on a regular basis. The Home Secretary and other Secretaries of State already have to deal with authorisations for interception, wire-tapping and a whole range of other things which provide an enormous burden on them. This would be an added burden that is quite unnecessary and intrusive. It is being suggested by lawyers. I think that everyone who has spoken for it, both in Committee and outside it, have been lawyers. Lawyers are generally like MPs and other politicians. When I was an MP, I found that people like you individually but they are not very fond of you collectively. In my constituency I had a lot of support, but collectively we were not very popular. I like lawyers as individuals. I like no one better than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, who I have known for many years. However, I get a bit worried when they gather together as a herd and push something. The wisdom of this amendment must be questioned—I hope that the House will question it—as it is an unfair, undue and, above all, unnecessary burden to put on Secretaries of State when the system has been operating quite properly and effectively up until now.