---

Bribery Bill [HL]

My Lords, I hope I will be forgiven if I deal with the present amendment at the same time as Amendment 6, to which I have placed my name and which has the support of the same noble Lords as support this one. I repeat the disclosure I made on Report as to my interest. I start by explaining why I consider that this provision and the issues we are discussing are of considerable importance. As I understand it, the defence made available in Clause 13 has the effect of the state acknowledging that there will be circumstances where members of the security services, intelligences services and Armed Forces will, in the course of their duties on behalf of the state, commit acts of bribery. This House would agree that there could be circumstances where that is right and proper but this is a significant power to give to the security and other services: the power to bribe without any form of parliamentary scrutiny or other form of prior authorisation. We have certain experience in this field. Three Acts deal with the security services and intelligence services and work reasonably well. They require a warrant to authorise acts which would otherwise be unlawful. The systems provided for are the subject of a form of review and scrutiny by an independent person who is normally a retired senior judge. That is done, for example, in relation to telephone tapping. One can see why it is absolutely necessary, even though the situations where telephone tapping has to take place are substantial. I have difficulty understanding why, if it is practical in relation to telephone tapping or the searching of premises, something cannot also be done in this connection. It is important that, whereas the security services and intelligence services now have well-developed methods of keeping appropriate records so that they can be inspected, there is no legislation of which I am aware—I know I will be corrected if I am wrong—dealing with the Armed Forces, who are going to have this power to bribe on behalf of the state. It is self-evident that if a new power to bribe is being given by this legislation to the Armed Forces, that could properly be said to be necessary in particular circumstances. We do not say otherwise; but it does need safeguards. One way of providing them, particularly in relation to the officers of the various services to which I have referred, was suggested by the amendment referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It creates an improvement. However, in drafting Amendment 6, on which I am primarily addressing your Lordships, I listened to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Bach—I endorse the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, about the Minister’s courtesy—and treated it with the seriousness that it obviously deserved. I sought to find a way in which there could be a form of supervision, admittedly not ideal, that would provide protection in regard to both matters to which I have referred; first, the need for there to be a system in place to indicate the scale of bribery that is occurring, and the circumstances in which it is occurring; and secondly, to provide a flexibility that would not and could not interfere with the security services in the way indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.