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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Local Government) Order 2010

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken in what I detect are supportive voices for the order, although I think that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, followed a slightly more pessimistic vein than I would have hoped for on such a constructive order. However, I think that his view has been counterbalanced by rather more optimistic perspectives with regard to the community councils from the noble Lords, Lord Livsey and Lord Elystan-Morgan. I will deal with the issues that I think noble Lords are particularly concerned about. First, the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, was concerned about whether the establishment of a granting power for potential extra resources to individual community councils would replace the current funding arrangements. That is not the intention. The Welsh Ministers have no intention of replacing the present structure of the community councils, which will continue to receive their income via a precept. What is sought is a power to enable Welsh Ministers to provide funds for additional functions that may be bestowed on community councils. That would depend on community councils seeking initiatives that require additional funding. It would be for the Assembly to make that judgment, but surely it is right that we are transferring power so that the Welsh Assembly makes that judgment rather than anyone else so that it meets the democratic requirements in those terms. I suppose that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, would say that he has introduced an element of realism into the debate rather than pessimism, but I think that he is overly gloomy, certainly with regard to the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, raised about council opportunities and festivals. Community councils do not take initiatives in those areas dependent solely on how well off they are. If that were the case, we would have our festivals in very different locations from where many of them are. It very much relates to the inspiration, commitment, energy and activity of the local people who get festivals off the ground, as the noble Lord mentioned with regard to the Brecon Jazz Festival, although there are many other events across the whole of the United Kingdom that noble Lords could easily draw on. They are a reflection not of comparative resources in the locality, but of particular initiatives of people who are prepared to get things done. We all salute those communities, which achieve these things very well. The order is entirely consistent in these terms. It is a step forward in democracy: first, by transferring the overall powers to the Welsh Assembly rather than letting them rest with the Secretary of State answerable to this Parliament; and, secondly, by attempting to enhance the powers of communities. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, for identifying with great accuracy the enormous divergence of community councils in Wales. It is true that there is a great difference, but we are seeking to make provision possible. How far powers are exercised and the extent to which local community councils respond will depend on all the initiatives that I have indicated. As the noble Lord rightly identified, some community councils are very significant indeed. We appreciate that Barry council is a pretty significant institution in its own right. Why is it so large and yet still a community council? Of course, it depends on the conurbation that one relates to. In the case of Barry and in other parts of Wales, by definition the authority to which the community councils relate are far distant and are not numerous in population, let alone at the level of the community councils. However, we are seeking an enhancement of the community councils. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, was optimistic about these proposals and supportive of them, for which I am grateful to him. I do not think that the issue of voting transparency crops up very much, nor does the issue of the methods by which councils are elected. I do not think that the Assembly thinks it necessary to have powers in this area to fulfil its obligation of enhancing the powers of community councils. It has not sought that particular power or competence. The noble Lord is of course fully entitled to his viewpoint, but it is not shared by the Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked why the Welsh Assembly Government were not proceeding with a more voluntary approach, rather than this element of legislative competence. Rhodri Morgan made it clear, when he was concerned with the development of this competence, that he was very much in favour of it going forward on a voluntary basis. In a sense, this legislative translation is a back-up; it is a reserve power, where achievement may be at a lower level than one would otherwise want to see. There is the expectation, as in all relationships with community councils, that a great deal of initiative has to come from the councils. It is collaborative with the Welsh Assembly Government, in a way that is similar for community councils throughout the United Kingdom. We all recognise how important that aspect of local initiative is. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, was worried about whether we have inserted an additional tier of local government and I could see the demons that were beginning to lurk—extra bureaucracy and extra cost in difficult times. He warned us against the problems that we might create. I emphasise that this is not about an additional tier; it is about enhancing the competences of community councils where they wish to take initiatives. It is not about creating an additional tier. The order should not create anxieties about additional bureaucracies or the notion that the difficult economic times that we are in would flatten aspiration. If the extension of democracy depended on levels of economic growth and levels of well-being, we would have to say that an awful lot of developments in democracy have taken place against economic backgrounds vastly different from the position that modern democratic states in the main enjoy today. After all, our own nation’s democracy was scarcely won at a time of great economic flourishing and neither the American Revolution nor the French Revolution—steps forward in democracy—took place against a background of enormous optimistic hope. In fact, people were fighting against being taxed in periods of considerable economic difficulty. Therefore, I do not accept that argument, which is also too limited. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, does himself a disfavour in these terms. This is about creating a structure for the future, not just for the next six or seven years of economic difficulty while we pay off debt—I am all too well aware of the strains and stresses that face us in the relatively short term. This order is about enabling powers for the long term. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that perhaps, having made his little jibe at the present economic circumstances, he needs a wider and more optimistic perspective on the virtue of this enhancement of democracy in Wales. Motion agreed.