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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Transport) Order 2010

My Lords, the noble Lord is right but I emphasise that it is certainly an aspiration of both the Government and the Welsh Assembly Government to see a mutually recognised travel scheme—an issue that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts. Regular discussions take place between the Department for Transport and the devolved Administrations on this issue but it is pretty complicated, and of course rail is even more difficult because of the nature of the franchises. However, I am saying not that the Welsh Assembly Government are not fully cogniscent of the issues that both noble Lords have identified but that they are seeking competence in the area where they can play a more significant part, and I think that that should be welcomed. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, was very concerned about the safety of the buses provided for learners. I declare an interest in that I once enjoyed filling the role of president of RoSPA and am still a vice-president. Consequently, I always tackle safety issues with the greatest of interest and concern, and therefore inevitably I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lords, Lord Roberts and Lord Glentoran, when they raise these issues in the context of Wales. School buses are not a devolved matter. Questions of safety and the provision of safety, particularly seat belts—the noble Lord mentioned three children sitting on two seats, which does not sound particularly safe to me—all come within the remit of the UK Government. Vehicles are inspected by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency and of course the MOT requirement applies across the whole country and is not at all a devolved matter. However, the noble Lord is right that we pay extra attention to the safety of school transport. This LCO will enable the Assembly, if it wishes, to restrict the use of double-decker buses if it is decided that they involve safety factors because of the possible lower levels of supervision when two decks are involved. In addition, if the Assembly did decide that three children on two seats was dangerous enough to increase the number of accidents and injuries, the Assembly could take that power. We are giving the Assembly exactly the competence to address itself to the issue that the noble Lord has raised. With regard to seatbelts, that power already exists with regard to school buses and therefore there is no need for devolution in those terms. On the safety issues, I am with the noble Lords in expressing their concern and anxiety. This order gives the competence to the most appropriate authority for dealing with this in Wales; namely, the Welsh Assembly. Consequently we can anticipate that the kind of anxieties that noble Lords have expressed today about safety will be taken up by Members of the Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, raised the issue of appeals. Currently the Welsh Ministers have power to regulate the process once an application has been made to them under Section 156(4)(c) of the Transport Act 2000. The basic mechanism that precedes a consideration of appeal is set out in the Transport Act 2000 and the Welsh Ministers have no competence to change these. In view of what the noble Lord has said about the question of appeals, it may be that that could be the burden of an early LCO to address itself to this competence as well. At the present time they do not have that competence in view of our national legislation with regard to appeals. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for his contribution to the debate. Air transport did not figure too extensively in my brief but I hear exactly what he says. At times one can feel that Wales is such a small part of the total transport system of the UK that anything that is regulated on a United Kingdom basis—I am pretty sure he understands why air traffic control is—can raise particular difficulties for local services in Wales. He mentioned the Cardiff to Anglesey air route. The Government have no proposals—nor has the National Assembly for Wales put forward any proposals—for the division of air traffic control. The noble Lord will have to see that as a UK-wide issue. As he probably knows, it is a bit wider than just the UK when it comes to the very complex issues of air traffic control. I beg to move. Motion agreed.