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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010

My Lords, this has been a positive and constructive debate. I start by thanking all the noble Lords and the noble Baroness for their kind words of welcome and congratulation. I consider it a privilege to be able to engage with noble Lords and, indeed, to re-establish some friendships and acquaintances from my time in the other place, particularly with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. Exactly 27 years ago this week—I am an anorak in this sort of thing—I served along with the noble Lord on my first Standing Committee in another place, which was considering the Petroleum Royalties (Relief) Bill. It certainly means a lot to me to be here and to engage with him again. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, suggested that I would, over time, get to realise that Welsh politics is different from Scottish politics. The learning curve has been very steep indeed but I had already appreciated that, although I am sure that there is still much more to learn. In fact, with the happy situation of belonging to a federal party along with my noble friends here, we have learnt from one another over a number of years how the body politic functions in different parts of our United Kingdom. I join the noble Lord, Lord Jones, in congratulating the noble Baroness on assuming Front-Bench duties. I rather suspect that there will be a number of occasions when we will be facing each other across the Dispatch Box, either in Grand Committee or in the Chamber, and I very much look forward to those encounters. I welcome the fact that there has been broad agreement and support for the order. Perhaps I might respond to a number of the points raised. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, made a point about the timing of the laying of the order. She asked why my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary had apparently changed his position. We could always go into forensic detail about what happened when in the weeks of February and March. My understanding is that the order could have been laid before Parliament before the wash-up. It does not necessarily help us today to speculate on why that did not happen. The point is that, after a bit of a troubled history when another order fell foul of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, we have an order today that has commanded support. On the press comments in the Western Mail and the press release issued by the Wales Office, the statement in the press release made clear why there was an apparent change in position. Indeed, my honourable friend David Jones indicated to the Committee in the other place that he had had discussions with Jocelyn Davies and that there had been an agreement to excise the provisions relating to the right to buy from the order—let us recall that that was the position of the Welsh Affairs Committee in 2008. However, it was then discovered that, to make that change, with all the procedures that would go with it, it would not be possible to get the order through before the Summer Recess, as we wish to do in order to give the Welsh National Assembly an opportunity to pass legislation, if it wishes to take advantage of the order, before the election in 2011. This is an example of the Welsh National Government and this Government being able to discuss these things in a mature way and to come forward with the right solution. I hope that we will be able to take that forward by consenting to this order when it is put to the whole House. The noble Baroness mentioned the importance of the Essex report, which I understand has been an important part of the thinking in the development of the strategy that the Government in Wales produced earlier this year. We hope that we can facilitate its implementation by passing this legislative consent order. My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy emphasised the importance of the right to buy. There have been 140,000 sales. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked about the experience over time of the right to buy. It has applied to over 46 per cent of the original stock since it was introduced in 1980. The numbers have declined. In 1997-98, there were 2,716 completed sales—I am picking out dates for the key peaks and troughs. In 2003-04, there were 6,811 sales. In 2007-08, there were 819 sales. In 2008-09, there were 157 sales. The number has fluctuated over time but, over the last two years for which I have figures, it has apparently gone down. The position of the Welsh Assembly Government is that they wish to use the powers temporarily to suspend the right to buy in areas where there is housing pressure. My noble friend made the point that, if devolution means anything, it goes further than just an Assembly. One of the assurances that we sought was that, with regard to Gypsy and Traveller sites, a specific site would not be imposed on a particular community. We are grateful for that assurance. A number of noble Lords made the more general point that, if you are going to devolve, there is no point in second-guessing the policy that will be used. We are here to exercise our statutory function under the Government of Wales Act to assess the devolution of powers under this order. It must then be a matter for the Members who are properly democratically elected to the Welsh National Assembly to determine how they will use their powers. That is the proper way in which devolution moves forward. The noble Lord, Lord Jones, said that we should be very clear in understanding what we are doing in this. He mentioned the word "federalism". That might get my noble friends Lord German and Lord Roberts of Llandudno and me excited, but I shall resist the temptation at the moment. There may be opportunities in the future to discuss that. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked a number of important detailed questions. I have already indicated the figures with regard to the right to buy. I shall answer some of his other points as best I can. More than 70 areas have been devolved to the Assembly to date. I am informed that there have been 14 LCOs to date and that, in addition, framework powers have been devolved in other Bills. I do not have a figure for the number of subsequent exercises of that power by the Welsh National Assembly, but if I can get that information I shall write to the noble Lord and inform him. He also asked what was left to devolve. The answer is, of course, a great deal. Even just in the area of housing, this order does not cover housing finance or the private rented sector, on which the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, last week made a distinguished maiden speech, dealing with many issues. The order does not deal with specific issues such as park homes. These are matters that will be the substance and meat of the debate that takes place leading up to the forthcoming referendum, when the people of Wales will have a choice about how they take forward the possibilities of further devolution. As I said earlier in the Chamber, that is a matter for the people of Wales; ultimately, it is for them to decide. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked why the Government did not take out the abolition. I hope that I have answered that already in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. The most important thing to us was to get this order through and to allow the Welsh Assembly to determine how it wishes to exercise these powers. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, used the eloquent phrase "passport for legislation". That is very much what we are doing today; we are being asked to agree a passport for legislation. He said that the correct thing was for us to consider whether it was appropriate for legislative competence to be transferred and devolved. In a nutshell, that is what we are being asked. It is certainly the belief of the coalition Government that the answer to that should be, "Yes, it is appropriate". I commend the order to the Committee and hope that we all agree that it is appropriate. Motion agreed.