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House of Lords: Allowances

If the noble Lord travels as a representative of the House of Lords, he would be able to claim an allowance under the first category in the table, so that is already provided for. The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, was worried that members of Select Committees might be less willing to travel on committee visits at the rate of £150. I cannot remember exactly what the rate is now, but it is not the full daily rate. It is a reduced rate and is not far different from £150. The new scheme is intended to provide adequate support for Members to contribute to their activities, but if we find that there is a problem with Members being inhibited from travelling on committee visits, we will have to review the system—we are keeping it under review, as I have said. However, it is not the proposal to do so at the moment. In passing, I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that the cost of his telephone call to his wife on an overseas visit could be taken from his daily subsistence allowance, which he would receive. I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, which would, evidently, reimburse Members for first-class travel regardless of cost. The noble Baroness referred to the Wakeham group’s report and the difference between the SSRB’s recommendations and those of IPSA. The Wakeham group considered the merits of both sides of the proposals on train travel. It was prepared to accept the SSRB’s recommendations but noted the difficulty of verifying whether a Member was working. Noble Lords will recall the arguments about whether one was going to be working on the train and therefore whether one should travel first or second class. The group expressed a preference for the IPSA proposal, which rightly emphasised value for money over class of travel, and the House Committee agreed. Of course, the committee understands the noble Baroness’s argument but it does not support her suggestion. Members with senior rail discounts who can book in advance will almost certainly be able to book first-class tickets at a cost lower than the standard open fare and, if they do that, they will be reimbursed in full. In advance of this debate, I did some research into fares using the internet and with the help of the Travel Office. With the minimum of forward planning, I was able to find first-class fares that were easily lower than the standard open fare, which of course is the maximum that can be reimbursed. For example, I looked at the costs of taking a train from York to London. The standard open return fare is £223. I looked at booking a train at around, say, nine o’clock next Monday, when the House comes back, and returning at about six in the evening on Wednesday, when we rise for the Summer Recess. Whatever the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, says, it is not very difficult to predict that kind of timetable for one’s week. We normally rise for the weekend on a Thursday, which is a debating day, and we nearly always know roughly when that is going to be. However, returning to my argument, as I said, the price of a standard open fare is £223, whereas the cost of a first-class return ticket with a senior rail discount is £131.35 and so is easily covered within the allowance. If the noble Baroness is still worried about the minority of Members of this House who are not yet eligible for a senior railcard, even without the senior railcard discount the price of a first-class return is £199—still £24 short of the maximum. I should be very happy to share the fruits of my research with the noble Baroness or, indeed, with any other noble Lord, but I also have an assurance from those who work in the Travel Office downstairs that they are very willing to help noble Lords in seeking out the best value for money for their tickets. Of course, in the event that Members cannot find a lower fare, they can decide for themselves whether to travel standard class, which is not as bad as all that—a point made by some noble Lords. However, the key here is not class of travel but securing value for money for the taxpayer. Therefore, I hope that the noble Baroness will not feel that she needs to press her amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Shaw of Northstead, made a brief point about the cost of parking a car at the local station, saying that it was cheaper to take a taxi. I assure him that this is the kind of detail that we will need to look at in future reviews of the scheme. The noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie of Culkein, raised the matter of travel by sleeper on trains. I recognise that this can be a problem and we agree to look at it after Christmas, when we will learn what experiences noble Lords have had. It might be quite off-putting for a member of the ordinary general public suddenly to find themselves having to share a sleeper compartment with a noble Lord. One’s sympathy might go out to the public in that. I close by saying that, as indicated in the report, the committee agreed with the Leader of the House that the scheme should be put in place for the lifetime of the present Parliament and not be subject to a review in one year or three years’ time. However, as has been said, that does not mean that every detail set out in the report is set in stone for all time. If any of the new elements of the scheme cause problems for individual Members—the sort of problems that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, raised—the House Committee will of course consider them in the future. I hope that, when it comes to it, noble Lords will support the Motion standing in my name.