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Adjournment debate on Tuesday, 27 June 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hutton of Furness. The answering member was Lord Hammond of Runnymede.

Pensions Reform

Debate on a motion for the adjournment on the white paper on pensions reform (Security in Retirement White Paper - Cm 6841).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
448 c138-230 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Kali Mountford | 448 c221-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a valid point about health inequalities. When pensions were first introduce...
Anne Begg | 448 c192 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the hon. Gentleman make this argument on a number of occasions. What would he say to th...
Show all contributions (156)
Jim McGovern | 448 c196 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that any consultation following the White Paper must focus on young people...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c146-7 (Link to this contribution) Turner proposed not a citizens pension but a universal pension for those over 75. We have taken on b...
Kali Mountford | 448 c219-20 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way so early in her already brilliant speech. What does s...
Kali Mountford | 448 c230 (Link to this contribution) I know that it is late in the day, but some important points were raised about carers and women. Wil...
Kali Mountford | 448 c196 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes my point even more concisely than I had hoped to do. He i...
Kali Mountford | 448 c197 (Link to this contribution) It is a problem in some sectors, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney) p...
Kali Mountford | 448 c197-8 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely why we have problems in the pensions sector now. There were warnings in the 1980s ...
Kali Mountford | 448 c194 (Link to this contribution) I have noticed a distinct difference in the tone of this debate compared with previous pensions deba...
Kali Mountford | 448 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) That is true to some extent. I also find some pensioners who, having taken advantage of the many off...
Kali Mountford | 448 c148 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his explanations of the various schemes and the balance be...
Kali Mountford | 448 c162 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman points to the apparent disparity between different people in similar-seeming jobs...
David Laws | 448 c153 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman raises a serious point. Given his party’s general support in principle for the NP...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c153-4 (Link to this contribution) The policy solution is to create a more attractive regime for occupational pension schemes so that e...
Jenny Willott | 448 c154 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a startling resemblance between the current occupational...
Speaker | 448 c138 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
Robert Syms | 448 c176-8 (Link to this contribution) This is an important debate. I suspect that security in old age is one of the most important issues ...
Robert Syms | 448 c178 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes her point, but it is clear that as the state pushes up the retirement age many o...
Anne Begg | 448 c178 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is in danger of misleading himself—I will not say the House. The state retirement...
Robert Syms | 448 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is sensible to honour contracts entered into, but we are talking about the agreement...
Stewart Hosie | 448 c178 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman’s argument and the intervention from the hon. Member for...
Mike Weir | 448 c181 (Link to this contribution) The point made by my party’s amendment is that the White Paper omits any discussion on the central p...
Anne Begg | 448 c180-1 (Link to this contribution) I think that we all come into Parliament with the intention of making a difference. I genuinely beli...
Mike Weir | 448 c182 (Link to this contribution) There are some parts of the White Paper with which we agree, but may I stress again that we are in f...
Anne Begg | 448 c181-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman has made my point for me. A citizens pension did not necessarily hav...
Anne Begg | 448 c182-3 (Link to this contribution) If that is the case, the SNP should have tabled an amendment adding their proposals to the end of th...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c174-5 (Link to this contribution) I am aware that there are genuine difficulties in identifying all those who are eligible for the sch...
Stewart Hosie | 448 c173-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will be aware that one of the problems with the financial assistance scheme is that it...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c173 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is alleged that the 80 per cent.—in common with the other percentages that I have qu...
Nigel Waterson | 448 c173 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree that one of the problems is that the Government talk about percentages of w...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c175 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for backing me up—I have certainly heard him say that many times before.
Nigel Waterson | 448 c175 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is absolutely right: at no stage have the official Opposition ever committed taxpayers...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c175 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman is about to dispute that, I am happy to give way.
Sandra Osborne | 448 c176 (Link to this contribution) I will ask the Minister about precisely that issue in a moment. The Opposition’s reaction to the mon...
James Purnell | 448 c175 (Link to this contribution) But is my hon. Friend aware that those unclaimed assets are not the Government’s money? It is obviou...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c148-50 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add:"““, recognises the importance of consensus in ens...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c148 (Link to this contribution) I will describe the changes briefly. As my hon. Friend knows, we shall consult on the detail, but in...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 448 c145-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my right hon. Friend will ask the Minister for Pensions Reform to deal with this questio...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c145 (Link to this contribution) To some extent, pension credit will cover women in those circumstances. I am sure that my hon. Frien...
Iris Robinson | 448 c145 (Link to this contribution) What does the Secretary of State intend to do for the many widows who, on the death of their husband...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c144-5 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the Treasury Committee’s excellent report, which has helped o...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 448 c143-4 (Link to this contribution) In the light of his comments about longevity, will the Secretary of State now extend his speech? I t...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c143 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way. I want to give the House some good news. Our life expectancy will have increase...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c143 (Link to this contribution) I will do so a bit later, if my hon. Friend will bear with me. In extending the financial assistanc...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c143 (Link to this contribution) I am only on page 6, so the hon. Gentleman had better make himself comfortable.
Julie Kirkbride | 448 c142 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c142 (Link to this contribution) The cash valuation is £15 billion. That is what I said in my statement, and that is still my view of...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c142 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to hon. Members on both sides of the House, I intend to make a little progress wi...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c142 (Link to this contribution) No. It is not true, as the hon. Lady has implied, that we have somehow changed our assessment of th...
Julie Kirkbride | 448 c141-2 (Link to this contribution) It would be helpful if the Secretary of State were to clarify the liabilities in relation to those w...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c141 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. We originally set aside £400 million for the ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) Has my right hon. Friend received recommendations from the National Pensioners Convention and others...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c140-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that, because the White Paper confirmed that we would continue to uprate the pension...
Lynne Jones | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) No, because I have given way to my hon. Friend already.
Chris Mullin | 448 c141 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend remind the House by how much that financial assistance scheme has been exp...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we are proposing any additional tax relief for employers. The hon. Gentleman gav...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Chancellor keeps all taxation issues under regular review. When thi...
Mike Weir | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman says that tax relief is a matter for the Chancellor, but surely it is funda...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once more, but then I want to make progress, because there is a time limit on Back-B...
Mike Weir | 448 c140 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c139 (Link to this contribution) I shall come on to that in a moment. The White Paper acknowledges that there are some issues, partic...
Lynne Jones | 448 c139 (Link to this contribution) In terms of cost, does my right hon. Friend propose to redistribute the money that is spent on tax r...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c139 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not propose to bring such a proposal before the House, because, as my hon. Friend knows, I ...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c139 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has a special expertise in this subject.
John Butterfill | 448 c139-40 (Link to this contribution) On tax relief, will the right hon. Gentleman clarify the answer to the question that I asked him whe...
Lord Redwood | 448 c138 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way so early in his speech. Why are the reforms n...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c138 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House welcomes the White Paper ‘Security in retirement: towards a new pensi...
David Laws | 448 c139 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has indicated that he wants to establish a consensus on the matter and hold d...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c138-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall address that point in a second, but that is not the view of my right hon. Friend the Chancel...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c171-3 (Link to this contribution) In view of the number of Members who wish to speak, I will be as brief as possible. I wish to commen...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 448 c169 (Link to this contribution) It is the solution that I mentioned a moment ago. We should have a simple scheme, whereby we continu...
John Butterfill | 448 c169-71 (Link to this contribution) I do not often disagree fundamentally with the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), but I d...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 448 c168-9 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, I favour a single scheme for everybody, whereby we continue the basic s...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c169 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in what my right hon. Friend has to say and I will certainly reflect on it. I am sur...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 448 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) I want to thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on two counts. First, our life expectanc...
John Butterfill | 448 c168 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that we need to establish an incentive...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c166 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused by something that the hon. Gentleman has just said. He expressed the concern ...
David Laws | 448 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. The point that I was seeking to make was that if we have a significant element of ...
David Laws | 448 c164-6 (Link to this contribution) I am fascinated to hear that. If the Minister looks at the Hansard report, he will see that a clear ...
David Laws | 448 c163 (Link to this contribution) I note the Secretary of State’s comments and the difference between modelling assumptions and recomm...
Baroness Hoey | 448 c163 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that there is huge concern in our constituencies about when the earnings...
David Laws | 448 c163-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right. She will have found, as many Members will have done, that although there was...
James Purnell | 448 c164 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to make it clear that all that we are saying is that the two fit well together in terms o...
David Laws | 448 c162 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right to say that all aspects of remuneration are considered together, but wrong to...
Terry Rooney | 448 c162 (Link to this contribution) The Government are not the employer in the local government pension scheme, but the regulator.
David Laws | 448 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) The Chairman of the Select Committee makes a technically accurate point, but one that ignores the fa...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c163 (Link to this contribution) It is important to correct what the hon. Gentleman has said about us not accepting Turner’s recommen...
David Laws | 448 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman, but perhaps he misunderstood my argument. I am arguing that the way in w...
Russell Brown | 448 c161 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman paints a picture of local government pension schemes. I remind him that some of t...
Terry Rooney | 448 c156-7 (Link to this contribution) In recent weeks, the Work and Pensions Committee has taken evidence on the Pensions Commission repor...
David Leslie Taylor | 448 c158 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to focus on the two categories of fragmented employment and self-employment,...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c155 (Link to this contribution) May I once again put on the record my strong view that the figures are not bogus? The £15 billion wa...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c156 (Link to this contribution) If, when we are in government in three years’ time or later, the Secretary of State has not resolved...
Terry Rooney | 448 c159 (Link to this contribution) Without naming names, when a multinational company is willing to break the law on trade union recogn...
David Laws | 448 c159-61 (Link to this contribution) The Liberal Democrats also welcome the opportunity to debate the detail of the White Paper. As the S...
Terry Rooney | 448 c158 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and as he speaks with the voice of the accountancy profession, I would expe...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c159 (Link to this contribution) I am wary of creating new regulators and having more regulation, but I entirely recognise his point....
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c155 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s plea for transparency. First, we need information. I also agree wi...
David Leslie Taylor | 448 c155 (Link to this contribution) Those people will not go away, including those in the BUSM scheme in Leicester, some of whom live in...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c154-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a good point. The issue is not just about the supremacy of Parliament over the ...
Lord Redwood | 448 c150 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes the extremely important point that whatever people today think about consensus—...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c150 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend takes me almost exactly on to my next point: there is no transparency in the fi...
Lord Hutton of Furness | 448 c150-1 (Link to this contribution) I genuinely did not intend to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s speech, but let me point two things out...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c151 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State is right to say that everything is set out, say on page 299 of the Turner rep...
Sandra Osborne | 448 c151-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a welcome commitment to trying to reach consensus on the way forward. We al...
Iain Wright | 448 c208-10 (Link to this contribution) I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I remember a report ...
John Butterfill | 448 c208 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not overlook the role of the Inland Revenue. One of the reasons ...
Diana Johnson | 448 c219 (Link to this contribution) I want to consider financial literacy, especially the financial education that our young people rece...
Brooks Newmark | 448 c217-9 (Link to this contribution) I should like to address three concerns that arise from the Government’s proposal for pension reform...
Mark Lazarowicz | 448 c214-7 (Link to this contribution) Like the majority of hon. Members who have spoken in the debate, I welcome the work of the Pensions ...
Philip Dunne | 448 c210-4 (Link to this contribution) I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. I have a personal pension, and...
Diana Johnson | 448 c222 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. However, my concern is that to achieve consensus in the country we must ens...
Diana Johnson | 448 c220-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention because it leads nicely to the comments that I...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 448 c198-200 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. I also welcome many aspects of the Gove...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 448 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) There is much merit in that point and I am sure that it has been noted by the Minister. I hope that ...
David Drew | 448 c200 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, and I have a company in my constituency called Lister Pett...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 448 c201 (Link to this contribution) I know that some of those workers live in my hon. Friend’s constituency and that of my hon. Friend t...
Adrian Bailey | 448 c202-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the White Paper. Of all the White Papers that I have ever read, it is probably the most lu...
Mike Penning | 448 c204-5 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to the debate for the past four and a half hours and have thoroughly enjoyed t...
Sammy Wilson | 448 c205-6 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that by splitting things up and looking at individual schemes, we migh...
Mike Penning | 448 c206 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. The Prime Minister seemed to make up the figure of £15 billi...
Iain Wright | 448 c207-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning). We speak fair...
James Purnell | 448 c230 (Link to this contribution) I must wind up. We are serious about consensus. We welcome the spirit in which people have approache...
James Purnell | 448 c230 (Link to this contribution) I can give that assurance. I welcome the welcome that was given by Members on both sides of the Hous...
Mike Weir | 448 c227 (Link to this contribution) My point, which I raised with the Minister both in this debate and earlier in the day, has to do spe...
James Purnell | 448 c225-7 (Link to this contribution) This has indeed been a good and important debate. Here we are, six hours after the start, with anoth...
David Laws | 448 c228 (Link to this contribution) But due to the impact of means-testing, the individuals whom it is most difficult to encourage to ma...
James Purnell | 448 c227-8 (Link to this contribution) That is what our health inequalities agenda is about. My constituency suffers from exactly those pro...
Nigel Waterson | 448 c224-5 (Link to this contribution) It is test inflation. These are the six tests. Do the reforms deliver pensioner dignity, rolling ba...
James Purnell | 448 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) We want to work with the hon. Gentleman on developing those issues, but to respond to his point, if ...
James Purnell | 448 c229 (Link to this contribution) I must finish. We will be happy to continue to update the House on the costs that the hon. Member fo...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) The Minister must not go on repeating those things. He knows very well, and he has heard me say clea...
Mike Weir | 448 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr. Brown) said, the word ““consensus”” has floated ar...
Russell Brown | 448 c188-89 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that will go on the record and I hope that any employers taking an interest in today’s debate w...
Jim McGovern | 448 c188 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my concern that if employers are given an opportunity to contribute just 3...
Russell Brown | 448 c186-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose). I say that because ...
Mike Weir | 448 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will find out soon enough. Two years ago, we published our own paper, ““A secure ret...
Anne Begg | 448 c191 (Link to this contribution) If by some strange miracle pigs were suddenly to fly and the Scottish National party were to obtain ...
Danny Alexander | 448 c186 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the need to have a stable and enduring consensus, ...
John Penrose | 448 c186 (Link to this contribution) I agree that lack of public trust in the pensions system is one of the biggest problems that we face...
John Penrose | 448 c184-6 (Link to this contribution) I should like to pick up some comments made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) who, ...
David Drew | 448 c197 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend on the generational issues. One of the problems in that regard ...
David Drew | 448 c197 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, but the problem is that those who took early retirement often ...
Mike Weir | 448 c192-4 (Link to this contribution) The point is to consider taxation on private pensions. The system will change, whether we use our pr...
Stewart Hosie | 448 c194 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the hon. Lady’s argument is the right way round, as I think that the consensus...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 448 c151-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention, and the Secretary of State is absolutely right,...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 448 c201 (Link to this contribution) What representation have the Government made to the Government of the Irish Republic to ensure that ...
James Purnell | 448 c230 (Link to this contribution) We welcome that clarification. We will certainly bear it in mind next time there is a Daily Mail pie...
Nigel Waterson | 448 c222-4 (Link to this contribution) This has been an excellent debate. I particularly enjoyed all the talk about longevity and the amoun...
Subjects
Age Workplace pensions Pensions National insurance contributions Reform State retirement pensions Retirement State second pension
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