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Debate on Thursday, 29 October 2009, in the House of Commons, led by Andy Burnham. The answering member was Stephen O'Brien.

Social Care Green Paper

Debate on a motion that this House has considered the matter of the Social Care Green Paper. (Cm 7673 - Shaping the future of care together).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
498 c479-545 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department of Health
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Harper | 498 c489 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State rules out touching the disability living allowance of those under 65 and that...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c489 (Link to this contribution) What is affordable and what is not affordable is a political choice. I have spoken to many people an...
Show all contributions (125)
Andy Burnham | 498 c489 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point, and he will have to test what comes after the Green Paper for suc...
Hywel Williams | 498 c489 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) made a significant point about DLA for over-65s, whi...
Andy Burnham | 498 c489 (Link to this contribution) It is important to make the point that the Green Paper is not about taking away from people. The who...
Baroness Teather | 498 c492 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a point that I wanted to make, and the same point has been made by my l...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that point, because it was a disappointment that that bro...
Andy Burnham | 498 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend must think about not just the here and now but of what the country will look like in ...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) First, may I give a couple of apologies as a courtesy to the House? The shadow Secretary of State is...
David Anderson | 498 c493 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the debate has been going on for much more than a decade? For th...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c486 (Link to this contribution) At this moment, people feel pressurised into keeping their relatives at home because they fear losin...
Andy Burnham | 498 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) They would obviously have to be spelt out. The Green Paper's approach was to consult on principles, ...
Andy Burnham | 498 c486-7 (Link to this contribution) I certainly recognise the problem that my hon. Friend describes. That is why reform of the system is...
David Anderson | 498 c487 (Link to this contribution) I share my right hon. Friend's unhappiness that the shadow Secretary of State is not here. Does my r...
Andy Burnham | 498 c487 (Link to this contribution) That is why it is disappointing that the shadow Secretary of State is not here. We cannot see how a ...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 498 c487 (Link to this contribution) This issue clearly affects all parts of the United Kingdom and serious issues arise in relation to o...
Andy Burnham | 498 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) That is why I have put them at the very top of my list of priorities. There is nothing more importan...
John Mason | 498 c488 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the Secretary of State what that equivalent level of support will be? Will people get care...
Andy Burnham | 498 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We want to place at the heart of the system the control...
Andy Burnham | 498 c482 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes an intelligent and important point. That is the nature of how the world is chang...
Baroness Browning | 498 c482 (Link to this contribution) In the context of the figures that the Secretary of State has just announced, when he considers the ...
Paul Burstow | 498 c485 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State address an omission from the Green Paper? It is very important that he d...
Jeremy Wright | 498 c484 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that the issue will effectively be a problem for the next Parliam...
Andy Burnham | 498 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman chairs the all-party dementia group, and my hon. Friend the care serv...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c484 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that at the heart of the Beveridge plan was the principle of univers...
Andy Burnham | 498 c484 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend should study the Green Paper, which talks about the creation of a national care servi...
Paul Burstow | 498 c483 (Link to this contribution) Earlier this year, the Government announced a very welcome injection of £150 million for carers over...
Andy Burnham | 498 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) We are issuing guidance on how to commission appropriate services for carers, but I recognise the is...
Andy Burnham | 498 c480 (Link to this contribution) I can tell my right hon. Friend that this Green Paper contains implications for the care system in W...
Andy Burnham | 498 c481 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman. He tempts me back to the substance of my remarks. I ...
Andy Burnham | 498 c482 (Link to this contribution) The crucial issue is whether my hon. Friend has spoken to all people across all ages and whether he ...
Andy Burnham | 498 c480 (Link to this contribution) It is important to remind the hon. Gentleman that it is a Green Paper on which we are consulting; we...
David Anderson | 498 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) I just want to pick up on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopki...
Andy Burnham | 498 c481 (Link to this contribution) Far be it from me to prevent my hon. Friend from getting home this evening. In the Green Paper, we h...
Jeremy Wright | 498 c481 (Link to this contribution) I understand, of course, that a large part of this debate will be about how we pay for care. However...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c479 (Link to this contribution) Would my right hon. Friend say that the consultation has been genuinely open about all possibilities...
Andy Burnham | 498 c479 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House has considered the matter of the Social Care Green Paper." Today's d...
Andy Burnham | 498 c480 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. Obviously we want the results of the consult...
Paul Burstow | 498 c479 (Link to this contribution) The fact that the Secretary of State is kicking off this debate is an indication of the importance t...
Andy Burnham | 498 c479 (Link to this contribution) I would certainly say that it has been an open consultation and that we have not approached the matt...
Ann Clwyd | 498 c480 (Link to this contribution) Although I realise that the impact of this Green Paper mainly applies to England, parts of it also a...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c508 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is helpful. Going for a social insurance option would not necessarily guarantee universal ...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c506-8 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that is one way through this. We could use empowerment, by givi...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c508 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with what my right hon. Friend is saying. I think that Beveridge, or the National ...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c505 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting and difficult point. When people can simply provide information by themselves...
Lord Harper | 498 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) I share the right hon. Gentleman's scepticism about how easy it is to join things up. I do not know ...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c502-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker, not least because of your l...
Hywel Williams | 498 c504 (Link to this contribution) The principle behind the assessments for attendance allowance and disability living allowance is sel...
Baroness Teather | 498 c500 (Link to this contribution) I am struck by the hon. Gentleman's comments and my reading of a section of the Green Paper reminds ...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c500-2 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the hon. Lady. Any of us familiar with these issues in our own families ...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) Well, he is a liberal with a small "l". Unlike that era, we are now, demographically, in a situatio...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c510-1 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to take part in the debate, and after the rather bad-tempered exchange at the Dispatch ...
John Mason | 498 c511 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should have a uniform system across the UK, under which eve...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c508 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way, but I must conclude soon to let others speak.
Hywel Williams | 498 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. He referred to taxation paying for pensions. This is not ...
Malcolm Wicks | 498 c509 (Link to this contribution) Of course. Unlike the era of Beveridge and another great Liberal—I am being polite today—[Interrupti...
Andy Burnham | 498 c497 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c497 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems to misunderstand that we all agree across the House that, above all other t...
David Anderson | 498 c497 (Link to this contribution) Surely that is what happens now. People are assessed for need by the local authority, but when they ...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c497 (Link to this contribution) I am coming to that in detail. I am sure that the Secretary of State will be pleased to hear my clar...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c493 (Link to this contribution) Rather than getting into a ding-dong dispute about that, I shall just say that I do not accept the h...
Bob Spink | 498 c493 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the assessment of continuing care needs funding is a real problem...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my hon. Friend, because that could impact greatly on those in receipt of the b...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c493-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a point about health needs, and some 30,000 people are under NHS continuing...
Baroness Browning | 498 c495 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend as concerned as I am about another benefit—in addition to the ones that he has men...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) It does not cover domiciliary care. It covers the Government's failure to honour the promise given b...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) I am answering the intervention by her hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, who has just cho...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c497 (Link to this contribution) I would like to move on. I think that I am about to answer the Secretary of State's question, which ...
Andy Burnham | 498 c497 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman just said that there was consensus that people want to keep their independence an...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c498 (Link to this contribution) I was right. The right hon. Gentleman is trying to read out the criticisms that those who are rather...
Paul Burstow | 498 c498 (Link to this contribution) I just want to make sure that I fully understand the proposal that the hon. Gentleman is setting out...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c498 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will be patient for a second, he will hear about that. This proposal does not ...
Speaker | 498 c512 (Link to this contribution) Order. If the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) wishes to make a comment, he knows the way to ...
David Anderson | 498 c512 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the very fact that the Conservatives call their scheme a "home pr...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c512-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) is right. I have heard a lot from the hon. Member for Edd...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c511 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there should not be a postcode lottery, but a standard that we sho...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c511 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, our policy is to move towards a system—originally derived from...
Lord Harper | 498 c511 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman say a little about his party's view of the personalisation agenda? His comme...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c512 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. It is welcome that at least we now have something from the Conservatives, having had radio s...
Laura Moffatt | 498 c519 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend—I think—for his intervention. I hear what he says. Without question, my cons...
David Anderson | 498 c524-8 (Link to this contribution) As Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, my hon. Friend the...
Baroness Browning | 498 c522-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I am sure the House has become fed up with me going on about...
David Anderson | 498 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely. They would need medical, social and financial assessments, but my point is that ...
Baroness Browning | 498 c528 (Link to this contribution) If those people were self-funding, would they not be subject to assessment to see whether they neede...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c521 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady talks about ticking boxes. I have had two cases recently in my surgery involving peopl...
Baroness Browning | 498 c519-21 (Link to this contribution) I intend to focus on people receiving care in the community rather than on the part of the Green Pap...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c522 (Link to this contribution) I commend the hon. Lady for making her points so very powerfully. Does she agree that there is insuf...
Baroness Browning | 498 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, as I was just coming to what is now regarded in this country as...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c519 (Link to this contribution) The problem with the taxation system is that it is regressive. If it were made much more progressive...
Laura Moffatt | 498 c517-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. I suspect that if that question were put directly to m...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c517 (Link to this contribution) I admire my hon. Friend for the consultation process that she has held. If I were to put my view to ...
Lord Harper | 498 c517 (Link to this contribution) I think I know what the hon. Lady is alluding to, and I am sure that the Minister will say more abou...
Laura Moffatt | 498 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. There was indeed a sense of concern about that. Althoug...
David Anderson | 498 c516 (Link to this contribution) May I suggest to my hon. Friend that one of the dangers of the personalisation of social care is tha...
Laura Moffatt | 498 c515-6 (Link to this contribution) I have had an interest in this subject for many years, particularly as an acute nurse who cared for ...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c515 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have committed to a form of the Wanless partnership model, and we ar...
David Anderson | 498 c543 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has obviously made the assumption that the only way to pay for this is out of income ta...
Phil Hope | 498 c542-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, this country has some excellent examples of support for advocacy, particularly among the user-l...
Phil Hope | 498 c541-2 (Link to this contribution) I will make this point now, although I was going to come on to address the contribution of the hon. ...
Lord Harper | 498 c541 (Link to this contribution) I agree about portability and the disability movement, but what is important to note is that this is...
Paul Burstow | 498 c542 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is discussing access to advice, but does he think that there also needs to be a similar...
Lord Harper | 498 c529-32 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that guidance, Mr. Speaker, and I will endeavour to live by it. First, I want to ...
Hywel Williams | 498 c532 (Link to this contribution) Many people receive carer's allowances for caring for people who receive attendance allowance, becau...
Phil Hope | 498 c538-41 (Link to this contribution) We have had an important—indeed, I would say crucial—debate on the Government's proposal to create a...
Hywel Williams | 498 c538 (Link to this contribution) That is a very good point. I would certainly like the Welsh Assembly Government to take more respons...
Lord Harper | 498 c538 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He has reminded us of a comment made by the right hon. Member f...
Hywel Williams | 498 c538 (Link to this contribution) I will, although I am loth to do so given the pressure of time.
Lord Harper | 498 c538 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Hywel Williams | 498 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) I will endeavour to be fairly brief. The Green Paper is concerned with care in England. My hon. Frie...
Paul Burstow | 498 c533-7 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that we are having this important debate. The Secretary of State was right when he id...
Lord Harper | 498 c532-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a sensible point that supports what I have said. Many groups that represen...
Greg Mulholland | 498 c511 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not. I was saying that there is not even consistently adequate care. I think that we all ...
Paul Burstow | 498 c498 (Link to this contribution) Precisely: it does not cover domiciliary care.
Greg Mulholland | 498 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) We entirely support the personalisation agenda—we have made that clear all along. Services are best ...
Phil Hope | 498 c543-5 (Link to this contribution) All I can say to my hon. Friend is that we are listening hard to what everybody has to say about the...
Hywel Williams | 498 c480 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State just alluded to attendance allowance, which is the other concern of people in...
Kelvin Hopkins | 498 c481 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way again, and I want to address this funding matter again. ...
Laura Moffatt | 498 c517 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I suspect, however, that my constituents w...
Phil Hope | 498 c541 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene, but I am sure he will understand that I do n...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c509 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not a Liberal.
Speaker | 498 c529 (Link to this contribution) Order. There is plenty of time left for Back-Bench contributions before the Minister of State winds ...
David Anderson | 498 c514 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has laid out a plan with which I fully concur. Will he give me an idea of his par...
Andy Burnham | 498 c496 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman accuses us of a lack of detail, but let me put a direct question to him. Does he ...
Stephen O'Brien | 498 c512 (Link to this contribution) I never claimed that they did anything else.
Subjects
Disability Disability living allowance Carers Community care Capital rules Finance Health insurance NHS Public consultation Older people Mental health Social security benefits Reform Social services Personal budgets
Contains statistics
Yes
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk