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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 9 May 2011, in the House of Lords.

European Union Bill

European Union Bill. Lords committee stage fourth day. Clause 5 : Statement to be laid before Parliament, agreed to. Clause 6: Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum, under consideration. Amendments 24 to 29 not moved. Clause 5 agreed. Clause 6 : Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum Amendment 29A Clause 6 : Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum Amendment 29A Moved by

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
727 c709-66 
Session
2010-12
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Liddle | 727 c709 (Link to this contribution) 29A: Clause 6, page 4, line 32, leave out ““or otherwise support””
Lord Liddle | 727 c709-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that this amendment will not take up too much of the Committee’s time. Its purpose ...
Show all contributions (140)
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c710-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak in support of the probing nature of this amendment and wish to ask noble Lords on ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c712-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, but I must say to the noble Lord—I think that he will agree in ...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c712 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps it will help the House if I read the wording in Section 6 of the European Union (A...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c711-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the purposes of this very narrow amendment, we accept that the Minister of the Crown c...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c714 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I oppose the amendment for the opposite reasons to those that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle,...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but the noble Lord's criticism might have been a little modified in the light of the explanatio...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c713 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, understood what I said. I stand by it, will repeat it and w...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c713 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, moved his amendment, he was careful and modest enough to...
Lord Richard | 727 c715 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to pursue this too much, but is the noble Lord again seriously suggesting that if you ...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c715 (Link to this contribution) I am suggesting that because, as the noble Lord will know, in Councils in Europe if you abstain or a...
Lord Richard | 727 c714-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I found that contribution extraordinary. Is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that if yo...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c718 (Link to this contribution) I simply do not accept what the noble Lord has said. I have been quoting from an Act from the last G...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c718 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but he leaves me rather confused. I try to think of th...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c717-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is not entirely new. We all understand that Her Majesty's Government have often said ...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c717 (Link to this contribution) Now that Minister has dealt with enhanced co-operation, can he go back to the chicken and the egg? I...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c717 (Link to this contribution) As a hypothetical situation, at that point it would because it would be a change in power and compet...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall respond to the spirit of the probing amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, r...
Lord Liddle | 727 c717 (Link to this contribution) If Britain agreed to enhanced co-operation but the member states participating in enhanced co-operat...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c715 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords on all sides of the House must now surely recognise that this amendment is a mistake. I ...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c715 (Link to this contribution) If by not turning up you allow a decision to be taken that binds the UK, you are implicitly supporti...
Lord Gilbert | 727 c724 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me for being impertinent, but could the noble Lord define his pronouns? He said, ““If we wer...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c723 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair question in relation to, say, the euro, which is the subject of Amendment 30. If we w...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c723 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. According to his argument, Ministers will be pu...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c720 (Link to this contribution) Is it not proper for this Bill and, therefore, this Government to use the correct wording found in t...
Lord Liddle | 727 c721 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness may have a point—and she may not. I would prefer that in legislation before this ...
Lord Liddle | 727 c720 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, of course this side of the House will not pursue this amendment and we will withdraw it. B...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c722 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how many of the legal luminaries to which the noble Lord has just referred are present...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c722-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. Unless I misheard again, the noble Lord did not end his remark...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c721 (Link to this contribution) 30: Clause 6, page 4, line 33, leave out ““to which this subsection applies”” and insert ““under Art...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c721-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to start by offering an apology to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, ...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c719 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for introducing this tangential issue into the debate on the amendment, and I really do ...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c720 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the noble Lord may know the answer to that. As I have made clear, when we are not dis...
Lord Radice | 727 c720 (Link to this contribution) I should like to raise a matter of pure curiosity. Did the previous Government’s Bill refer to a ref...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c718 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the reference to a scrutiny reserve is not quite right. A scrutiny reserve prevents a...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, but I hope that if he wants to criticise me in f...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c719 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for making that so wonderfully clear. I hope I have managed to persuade your...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c719 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, may I be allowed to put in a word on behalf of the Daily Express, abo...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c719 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, is he aware that these millions of people who follow the Daily Expr...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c737 (Link to this contribution) I have not raised the issue of defence at all in my remarks, so I do not know where that question co...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c733 (Link to this contribution) I cannot raise the question of age discrimination, because that is now illegal, but might it be a li...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c736-7 (Link to this contribution) I want first to address some of the general points that have been made in this debate and then focus...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c736 (Link to this contribution) I am very sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, is not here; he was here earlier. I...
Lord Goodhart | 727 c735 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right to say that the European arrest warrant has not worked out as properly as it...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c734-5 (Link to this contribution) I think that it is common ground that we are all in favour of increased national involvement in trea...
Lord Dykes | 727 c734 (Link to this contribution) When my noble friend referred to the Germans, he would accept, wouldn’t he, that, like us and other ...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c734 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that it is a pity that so many of these amendmen...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c733 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the noble Baroness felt it necessary to point that out. However, since I left the Eur...
Lord Goodhart | 727 c731-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am entirely in disagreement with what my noble friend has been saying. This Bill is full...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c732-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I take great pleasure in following the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. He dealt with that speci...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c729 (Link to this contribution) I am perhaps just a few days younger than the noble Lord. What I recall as a campaigner with my fath...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c729 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, but when she romanticises about the 1975 referendum, would she ...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c730-1 (Link to this contribution) The point of my remarks is very simple. I believe most profoundly, along with a number of others who...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c730 (Link to this contribution) I am a bit puzzled by the noble Baroness’s line of questioning over whether those of us who tabled a...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 727 c725 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is quite difficult in this debate not to get drawn into some sort of Second Reading spe...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c724-5 (Link to this contribution) The British Government of the day. My point, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lamont of Lerwick, is...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c728 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I oppose the amendment put forward by the noble Lord. My reasons are not in spirit differe...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c725-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to a number of the amendments in the group which are in my name and support the amendm...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c742 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, in his criticism of the way that these am...
Lord Dykes | 727 c741-2 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will forgive me, I will not give way again at this stage. The feeling about Claus...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c743 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that that was by parliamentary decision. That is precisely what I am trying to say. We g...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c743 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord really means to say that we gave away our parliamentary so...
Lord Dykes | 727 c742 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Should he not address himself specifically to t...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c744 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord will explain, given his right and proper loyalty to the sovereignty of the Un...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c743-4 (Link to this contribution) They are grouped so I am speaking to all of them. I am actually speaking in favour of the Government...
Baroness Garden of Frognal | 727 c743 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord but it would be helpful to your Lordships’ Hou...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c737-9 (Link to this contribution) The British people clearly care very much about the defence of the country; that is another, wider s...
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon | 727 c737 (Link to this contribution) My right honourable friend the Prime Minister put forward the Bill, which is all about connecting wi...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c739-40 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has made one of the longest interventions that I have ever taken in my time in ei...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c739 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way, particularly after he spoke so eloquently about political dog...
Lord Dykes | 727 c740-1 (Link to this contribution) As I hope my noble friend will agree, I have put my name to the amendments and wish briefly to addre...
Lord Dykes | 727 c741 (Link to this contribution) I entirely accept that. Indeed, no member state is forced to fly the flag. It is interesting that in...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c741 (Link to this contribution) I intervene to say that the Daily Express said that the British Government were being forced to fly ...
Lord Dykes | 727 c741 (Link to this contribution) The British people have not been consulted on that in any way. If they were, they would probably be ...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c741 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord admit that the absence of the European flag on most of our public buildings refl...
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne | 727 c755 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree, when he makes a comparison between the United Kingdom exercising a great ...
Lord Triesman | 727 c755 (Link to this contribution) Let me try to finish my sentence. Generally speaking, we have undertaken our defence, either in NATO...
Lord Triesman | 727 c755 (Link to this contribution) That may well be one of the substantive issues that people might concede was necessary, but it is al...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c756 (Link to this contribution) Order. You cannot intervene on an intervention.
Lord Triesman | 727 c754-5 (Link to this contribution) It is terribly tempting to go into experiences of Swiss referenda in the cantons. Sadly for the Hous...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c755 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says that he has never been asked on the doorstep about Article 312(2). Of course not...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c754 (Link to this contribution) Including myself? That is very generous. The mistake is in taking the line, ““Really, the people won...
Lord Triesman | 727 c756-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, made the point that the arrangements made under the NATO treaty...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c756 (Link to this contribution) Surely the noble Lord must agree that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, said, these other orga...
Lord Triesman | 727 c756 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that makes the point that I wished to make about the character of the alliances, even in a...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c756 (Link to this contribution) I cannot let the noble Baroness get away with that. The North Atlantic treaty says that when we go t...
Lord Triesman | 727 c756 (Link to this contribution) I have a feeling that I am going to give way instantly.
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c760-1 (Link to this contribution) All these issues are interconnected. In Clause 6 there are two concerns about the surrender of our v...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c758-60 (Link to this contribution) I accept that. I note that I had already crossed out the words ““Act of Parliament”” in my notes in ...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c760 (Link to this contribution) I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Faulks, said on the European public prosecutor. It seem...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c757 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a very wide-ranging debate, covering all these amendments. Some very wise an...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c757 (Link to this contribution) I know that it is late but will the noble Lord please not say that these amendments are designed to ...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c762-4 (Link to this contribution) I can make the oversimple point that referenda have been used rather frequently, including by the pr...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c762 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the Minister and shall be very brief. Given that a large part of his ar...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c764 (Link to this contribution) Much of what the noble Lord said on that matter is correct. There is no question of challenging the ...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c764 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his disarming response to the debate. It was an interesting debate. I am a ...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c761-2 (Link to this contribution) It is not the point because, as your Lordships have been reminded in the debate in the past half hou...
Lord Radice | 727 c761 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord may be right in what he has said—in fact, I think that he is—but there is a very simp...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c764-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. The most endearing feature of the debate was that it was the first of...
Lord Triesman | 727 c749-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we on this Bench have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Ha...
Lord Waddington | 727 c752 (Link to this contribution) Does not have the noble Lord agree that Members of Parliament are elected to exercise the powers tha...
Lord Triesman | 727 c750-2 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the point that the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, makes, but that was not a surrender of ...
Lord Waddington | 727 c750 (Link to this contribution) Does not the noble Lord appreciate that there is a very strong feeling in the country that, very oft...
Lord Triesman | 727 c752 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Flight. I took part in that referendum as a young a...
Lord Flight | 727 c752 (Link to this contribution) I think it was one of the noble Lord’s colleagues who made the point that it was the Wilson Governme...
Lord Triesman | 727 c752 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that may be one explanation. The other may well be that they do not have the courage to do...
Lord Radice | 727 c752 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend think it is because they do not really trust themselves to be parliamentarians?...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c753 (Link to this contribution) There is an important further point to be made. This big, important constitutional issue was devised...
Lord Risby | 727 c744 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have heard a great deal in this debate about marginalisation. We should recall the word...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c744 (Link to this contribution) Every issue that transfers powers from this country to the European Union is very important. The Bil...
Lord Risby | 727 c745 (Link to this contribution) I will be delighted to. I will come in a moment to a discussion of various elements such as passerel...
Lord Goodhart | 727 c745 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble friend will explain why judicial independence is damaged by our relationship with t...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c746 (Link to this contribution) It is astonishing how little listening and how much assertion there is in this debate. I spent quite...
Lord Flight | 727 c745-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to address the amendments tabled in my name. As I understand it, Clause 6 addresses...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c747 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but I think it would be helpful if he recognised that ...
Lord Faulks | 727 c748-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to comment on the European public prosecutor, the subject of an amendment by my nob...
Lord Flight | 727 c747-8 (Link to this contribution) While there is obviously a differentiation between the European Court of Human Rights and the EU, th...
Lord Triesman | 727 c753 (Link to this contribution) I should really try to make some progress, if I may.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c753 (Link to this contribution) I was one of those who was never in favour of joining the common market and opposed it during the re...
Lord Triesman | 727 c753 (Link to this contribution) As it is you, David, how could I refuse?
Lord Triesman | 727 c753 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is of course entirely true. That is the other conclusion that one should draw from some...
Lord Triesman | 727 c753-4 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the noble Lord has a slightly different experience of political life to mine, if that...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c754 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord not making the mistake commonly made by the political class in this country, which...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c754 (Link to this contribution) If you went to Rannoch Moor, they talk of nothing else.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c715-6 (Link to this contribution) I have a slightly more general question to put about a thread which is running through all our amend...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c720 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are in Committee and it is not necessary for noble Lords to interrupt or question the M...
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon | 727 c737 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Hamilton referred earlier to the importance of connecting again with the Britis...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c742-3 (Link to this contribution) I explained why it would have been far better if many of the amendments had been grouped differently...
Lord Flight | 727 c746-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his interruption. He enlightens Members of this House as he has done prev...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c718 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very willing to reflect on this point and see whether we can return to the House with...
Lord Triesman | 727 c752 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I broadly do agree, but that does not alter the general proposition that MPs are expected ...
Subjects
Crime Defence Fraud European Convention on Human Rights EU law European communities EU budget Prosecutions Referendums Parliamentary scrutiny Treaties Security Reform Treaty on European Union UK membership of EU Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union Treaty of Lisbon
Legislation
European Union Bill 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk