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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 10 May 2011, in the House of Lords.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. Lords report stage first day.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
727 c777-847, c868-84 
Session
2010-12
Department
Deputy Prime Minister
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
Government defeats
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Rennard | 727 c797 (Link to this contribution) It is the position of my party that general elections in which people get what they vote for is the ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has been a very full debate...
Show all contributions (154)
Lord Goldsmith | 727 c804 (Link to this contribution) That is the position under our present arrangements, which do not provide for a statutory term for P...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 727 c800-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the principle of fixed-term Parliaments and, since the start of scrutiny of the ...
Lord Blencathra | 727 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise, as far as it is necessary, to make a few observations on this Bill. I support the ...
Lord Dobbs | 727 c797-9 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to this debate and the previous one with fascination. We have gone today from Herber...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 727 c797 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my recollection is that the noble Lord’s party voted against alternatives being put forwar...
Lord Rennard | 727 c797 (Link to this contribution) We are rather going off the subject of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. Briefly, I remind the noble ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c804 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I misunderstood the noble and learned Lord. I thought that he was arguing for four year...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must confess that I was in the minority on the report of the committee that the noble Ba...
Lord Cormack | 727 c790 (Link to this contribution) Would my noble friend give way?
Lord Goldsmith | 727 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) That is the point. The Government could have said that they had decided that they wanted the term to...
Lord Pannick | 727 c789 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support these amendments. If we are to have fixed-term Parliaments, a change to th...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 727 c788 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord will not have overlooked paragraph 17 of the report, which explains the i...
Lord Goldsmith | 727 c787-8 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords will notice from this that over many years, both in this House and at the Bar before, my...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c787 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith but he is obviously unaware ...
Lord Goldsmith | 727 c787 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, but for one point, I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick...
Lord Cormack | 727 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) My memory does not go back throughout the whole of that century, as the noble Lord knows. In a sense...
Lord Tyler | 727 c786 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has been a doughty defender of the constitution for many years in both Houses. I resp...
Lord Cormack | 727 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, will hardly be surprised that I find my...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c783 (Link to this contribution) Is it not right that the same restrictions apply to this Government in this Parliament up to 2015 as...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 727 c783 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble and learned Lord's intervention, but he is ignoring the crucial distinct...
Baroness Jay of Paddington | 727 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I could draw the noble and learned Lord’s attention to the conclusion of the Select Comm...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 727 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) I certainly had not read the report, which I read carefully, as having drawn the distinction that I ...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c782 (Link to this contribution) I cannot commit a future Labour Government, but people should form their own view about whether fift...
Lord Rennard | 727 c782 (Link to this contribution) The previous Labour Prime Minister of course went for five years. If this legislation is passed in i...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 727 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support four years rather than five years for the reasons which I spelt out in Committee...
Baroness Hayman | 727 c782 (Link to this contribution) I have to inform the House that if Amendment 1 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 2 by reason of ...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c781-2 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think it would. Can you identify a third or fourth year which has been as been as awful...
Lord Rennard | 727 c796 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to the noble Baroness, I did not refer in my remarks to the events of last week i...
Lord Goldsmith | 727 c797 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, as I think that he is the first Liberal Democrat who has spoken on ...
Lord Wills | 727 c793-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to support this amendment, primarily because it will give the Government a ...
Lord Owen | 727 c791-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to inject, not legal points, but a few raw political questions. Why are we be...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c791 (Link to this contribution) I only make the point, before I give way to others, that it is very interesting to see just how many...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 727 c791 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would the noble Lord care to ponder on the thought that the British public might wish to h...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 727 c796 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, I hope that he will forgive me for feeling that he might be using a...
Lord Rennard | 727 c796 (Link to this contribution) In response to demand from the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly not to have a clash in 201...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 727 c796 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, but it is my understanding that the five years was a facility given by this ...
Lord Rennard | 727 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I set out in Committee three reasons why I felt strongly that a fixed-term Parliament of f...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c791 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I do not really follow the point that the noble Lord is making.
Lord Richard | 727 c791 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says that you need a five-year Parliament because you spend the first year getting to...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c791 (Link to this contribution) I think that is a perfectly fair point; I cede the point, but the fact is that Governments do change...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c790 (Link to this contribution) After my personal experience through those years, I therefore think that four years fixed for a Gove...
Lord Cormack | 727 c790 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and I remember my Chief Whip with great affection, but would my noble friend not accept that...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 727 c790 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord like to reflect again on the doctrine that Governments tend to do nothing in th...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c790 (Link to this contribution) That is the start of a very good argument as to whether they were the most successful. It much depen...
Lord Richard | 727 c791 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is dealing with this great difficulty of Governments coming in, getting to ...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 727 c790 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is true and we know very well at the moment that this Government, despite having to be a c...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c778 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out from ““election”” to end of line 5 and insert ““shall be 8 Ma...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c778 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have heard the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, my noble friend Lord Cormack an...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 727 c778 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there is nothing at present, without the Bill, to prevent t...
Lord Cormack | 727 c778 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will briefly but thoroughly endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said. When one ta...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 727 c781 (Link to this contribution) I commend the noble and learned Lord on the eloquence and persuasiveness of what he has been saying ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c777 (Link to this contribution) That the Report be now received. That the Report be now received.
Lord Grocott | 727 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before we consider the Report of the Bill, I should like to put a couple of points to the ...
Lord Pannick | 727 c878 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, both the noble Lords, Lord Norton of Louth and Lord Rennard, proceed on the basis that the...
Lord Rennard | 727 c877-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 12, 14 and 16 in my name and those of my noble friends Lord ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c879-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as has been indicated, the purpose of the operation of the order-making power in Clause 1(...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c878-9 (Link to this contribution) I had thought before hearing the debate that I would tend to support the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, b...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c880-2 (Link to this contribution) My apologies. I am not sure that the World Cup has traditionally been at this time of year. It would...
Lord Bach | 727 c880 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord should not forget 2026 for the World Cup.
Lord Rennard | 727 c884 (Link to this contribution) 12: Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out ““earlier or”” Amendment 12 agreed. Amendment 13 not move...
Lord Norton of Louth | 727 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have taken part in the debate. In response to the noble Lor...
Lord Norton of Louth | 727 c876-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 15 and 17. These amendments remove the provision that ena...
Lord Grocott | 727 c875-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for that response. He simply holds a fund...
Lord Norton of Louth | 727 c876 (Link to this contribution) 11: Clause 1, page 1, line 14, leave out subsection (5)
Lord Howarth of Newport | 727 c873 (Link to this contribution) I suppose we could do what the Scottish Parliament does, which is to have no sub-division into annua...
Lord Norton of Louth | 727 c872-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not planned to speak on this but, reflecting on what has been said, I am rather torn...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 727 c872 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for speaking at this late hour but I made it clear in Committee that if anybod...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we support this amendment. It goes to the heart of this Government’s claim that they wish ...
Lord Grocott | 727 c870-1 (Link to this contribution) The problem with that argument is that, yes, it is true that if the election is in May then normally...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c870 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not recall that the normal practice has been for the first Session after a May e...
Lord Pannick | 727 c845 (Link to this contribution) If this amendment were to be approved by this House and if it were to be approved by the other place...
Lord Pannick | 727 c847 (Link to this contribution) 5: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out ““each”” and insert ““a”” Amendment 5 agreed. Amendments 6 ...
Lord Grocott | 727 c868 (Link to this contribution) 8: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, at end insert— ““( ) Each five-year parliament shall include a minimum ...
Lord Grocott | 727 c868-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very simple amendment with a very simple objective which I hope the Government w...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c843 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I stand to be corrected, but as far as I am aware it is a novel approach. Not only could i...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 727 c844 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but what is his answer to my point and to that of the Minist...
Lord Pannick | 727 c843-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this interesting debate and for the su...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 727 c843 (Link to this contribution) With respect, that is not an answer to my question. The terrorism provisions end the Act of Parliame...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c843 (Link to this contribution) My recollection is that we put sunrise or sunset clauses into a significant amount of the terrorist ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 727 c843 (Link to this contribution) Can my noble and learned friend tell me whether he knows of any mechanism by which an Act of Parliam...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c840-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in spite of all the criticisms that the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House ma...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c840 (Link to this contribution) If we discovered that these provisions did not work well or reduced confidence in our constitution, ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c843 (Link to this contribution) I cannot readily think of one off the top of my head. However, there are enough people in the Chambe...
Lord Tyler | 727 c838 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has made a very important point about protecting the constitution. Has he considered ...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c839 (Link to this contribution) It is very difficult to answer that question, and I will not try. This is an important opportunity ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c839-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as we have heard, Amendments 4, 5 and 25, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, with the...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c838 (Link to this contribution) In the situation where you have a proper constitutional arrangement, whereby we protect the constitu...
Lord Gilbert | 727 c839 (Link to this contribution) Is not the danger to which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has just referred only likely to arise if bot...
Lord Turnbull | 727 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord explain my one reservation about a provision I otherwise support, which is about ...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c837 (Link to this contribution) Parliament could use its majority to get the repealing Act through, just as it could use its majorit...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c838 (Link to this contribution) I understand the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick and the noble Baroness, Lady Booth...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c838 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought it is sensible for Parliament to decide when it wants to consider the resolutio...
Lord Turnbull | 727 c838 (Link to this contribution) I think it satisfies me as regards the explanation, but I am not sure that it satisfies me as to whe...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c837 (Link to this contribution) What you do here is you have a Bill for fixed-term Parliaments, you see how it works and, if it work...
Lord Elton | 727 c837 (Link to this contribution) Can he answer the points made by my noble friend Lord Marks, in particular those relating to the Par...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c837 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the Parliament Act is a total red herring. The noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Tha...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 727 c837 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand how what the noble Lord has said answers my point that in order to revive the Fi...
Lord Rennard | 727 c837 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is of course a very clever lawyer, so perhaps he could just explain to the House, for...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c836-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I indicated earlier, I support this suite of amendments. They are important in relation...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 727 c835-6 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords will have heard me say that her discretion is very limited and that she seeks to stay ou...
Lord Gilbert | 727 c835 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord actually advancing the proposition that the monarch has no discretion whatever as ...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 727 c835 (Link to this contribution) We plainly take a different view of the constitutional arrangements. The monarch has a say in certai...
Lord Gilbert | 727 c835 (Link to this contribution) I have listened very carefully to the noble Lord’s speech. Over and again I heard him say that the P...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 727 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is an important point, but the answer is that if you legislate on the principle, as t...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 727 c834 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Tyler, I agree that these amendments are clever and elegantly dr...
Lord Butler of Brockwell | 727 c834 (Link to this contribution) Since it is agreed that the legislation is not necessary to bind the present Government, what purpos...
Lord Butler of Brockwell | 727 c832-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I and, I am sure, my noble friends are very grateful for the generous things which have be...
Lord Grocott | 727 c829 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton. I want to make a...
Lord Cormack | 727 c831-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, not for the first time today I find myself very much in sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord...
Lord Grocott | 727 c829-31 (Link to this contribution) I thought so, so his view is that the February 1974 election should have been a fixed, five-year Par...
Baroness Jay of Paddington | 727 c828 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, will he help me with the force of his argument about the imposition...
Lord Tyler | 727 c826-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and his distinguished collaborators have, as ever, tabled very interes...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 727 c829 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as a Conservative, I am extremely reluctant to see Parliament at any stage fiddling about ...
Lord Tyler | 727 c828-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness may recall that I was elected on 1 March 1974, and given the convention—it was re...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 727 c824-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and his hugely distinguished co-signatories, ...
Lord Goldsmith | 727 c809 (Link to this contribution) The Minister confirmed a moment ago—I am grateful to him—when he spoke about opinions that none of t...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c810 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not here to speak on behalf of these experts. In my closing remarks, I picked up the ...
Lord Bach | 727 c809 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble and learned Lord really suggesting that the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of fiv...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c809 (Link to this contribution) What the noble Lord claimed was in the Liberal Democrat manifesto was inaccurate. I am not shying aw...
Lord Bach | 727 c809 (Link to this contribution) Something is troubling me. If the noble and learned Lord has all these strong arguments against four...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c809 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the House will bear with me, I shall find the quote from the Liberal Democrat manifesto...
Lord Wills | 727 c808 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his espousal of these methods of public engagement. ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the Constitution Committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, asked my honour...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c814 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out from ““be”” to end of line 8 and insert ““on the day appointe...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c814 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think that the House has any appetite for long debates on any of these next votes...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c818 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the final amendment in this sequence is the only combination left, and although it propose...
Baroness Hayman | 727 c818 (Link to this contribution) If this amendment is agreed, I cannot call Amendments 4 to 7, by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is what the noble and learned Lord, in earlier discussions, described as the ““five-f...
Lord Pannick | 727 c822 (Link to this contribution) 4: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, at beginning insert ““If, but only if, a resolution to this effect is a...
Baroness Hayman | 727 c814 (Link to this contribution) I have to inform the House that, if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 3 to 7 inc...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c814-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the spirit in which the amendment was moved, I do not wish to detain the House. We have...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c815 (Link to this contribution) Persuasive an advocate though the noble and learned Lord is, I wish to test the opinion of the House...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c818 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out subsection (3) and insert— ““( ) Following the next parliamen...
Lord Pannick | 727 c822-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments are in my name and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and the nob...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c804 (Link to this contribution) I will just finish the point and then give way to the noble and learned Lord. If the Government had...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c804 (Link to this contribution) So if this House decided that it should be four years for subsequent Parliaments, the right course w...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c805 (Link to this contribution) I have made the point that it is not the Government who are proposing four years for subsequent Parl...
Baroness Jay of Paddington | 727 c805 (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble and learned Lord’s point. However, as I tried to ask on previous occasions, d...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c805 (Link to this contribution) Clearly the Government could have continued for five years, but the point is that the Government are...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 727 c805 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, surely the point is that this Government could have determined and announced that they wer...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c805-7 (Link to this contribution) The answer is the same as I gave a moment ago to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay—we believe there shoul...
Lord Morgan | 727 c807 (Link to this contribution) Is that not a totally false distinction? Do not a Government necessarily equate their party interest...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure that last Thursday would necessarily have been thought to be in my party’s i...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c779-81 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the opportunity has not been taken, so we must now build on the work done by this House. I...
Lord Rennard | 727 c884 (Link to this contribution) 14: Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out ““earlier or”” Amendment 14 agreed. Amendments 15 to 18 n...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 727 c873-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for affording the House a further opportunity to con...
Baroness Boothroyd | 727 c825-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the Bill’s first outing in this House since last week’s referendum, so I think we ...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c810 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has been a good and a very important debate. If what the noble and learned Lord says is...
Lord Morgan | 727 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) I listened with great fascination to the entertaining speech we just heard, which included the argum...
Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 727 c843 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord is right. There is a difference between an Act lapsing and not being revi...
Subjects
Devolution Elections Legislatures Fixed-term parliaments Dissolution Referendums Parliament Scotland Wales Coalition governments Statutory instruments Sunset clauses
Legislation
Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 2010-12
Link
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