Debate on bill on Tuesday, 10 July 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Young of Cookham.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Second reading continued. Agreed to on division (462 to 124). Queen's recommendation signified. Money resolution agreed to on question. Ways and means resolution agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 548 cc187-274
Session: 2012-13
Department: Cabinet Office
Legislative stage: Second reading
Procedure: Money resolutions; Ways and means resolutions; Queen's recommendation
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions: Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
We have listened carefully to the debate so far, confident that we will get a significant majorit...; Angela Eagle | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
The Government’s decision to withdraw the programme motion today is a victory for Parliament. The...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
I have nothing to add to what I have just said, apart from this: there will be business questions...; Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend have any sense of optimism that, following the announcement he has just...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
I say to my right hon. and learned Friend that I am ever optimistic, but, as he will have noticed...; Lord Blunkett | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Leader of the House give way?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c188 (Link to this contribution)
Yes.; Lord Blunkett | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who is indeed a gentleman and always has been. Wi...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
I respect the right hon. Gentleman, but I would not draw that conclusion. The issue on Second Rea...; Bernard Jenkin | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
May I commend the Government for the wisdom of their decision today? But may I put it to my right...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
With great respect, I have to disagree with my hon. Friend. Whether the Bill has “moral authority...; Jesse Norman | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way one last time, as I am conscious of Mr Speaker’s injunction about the large numbe...; Jesse Norman | 548 c189 (Link to this contribution)
I am enormously grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. Let me make it clear from the Co...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 cc189-190 (Link to this contribution)
On these matters, I listen to my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary, who indicated some di...; Conor Burns | 548 c190 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend referred to the free vote in this House in March 2007. I remind him that in ...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c190 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that my hon. Friend’s point is absolutely accurate, but that does not destroy the point...; Denis MacShane | 548 c190 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c190 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, but I am not going to give way for ever.; Denis MacShane | 548 c191 (Link to this contribution)
The Leader of the House is making the perfectly fair point that different parties at different ti...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c191 (Link to this contribution)
I say gently to the right hon. Gentleman, what happened to the Lisbon referendum? I do not know w...; Pete Wishart | 548 c191 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c191 (Link to this contribution)
I propose to make a little more progress, and then I may give way again.
No political party...; Pete Wishart | 548 c191 (Link to this contribution)
Should we not just go home? The Leader of the House knows it is all over; Government Members know...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman can go home, but the Government plan to proceed with their legislative program...; William Cash | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
On the question of election, would the Leader of the House be good enough to explain how it can p...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
The average length of service now is 24 or 26 years, so the proposal is an improvement.; Edward Leigh | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?; Lord Spellar | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Leader of the House give way?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
No, I am going to make some more progress.
We have ended up with exactly what the Conservat...; Lord Spellar | 548 c192 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 cc192-3 (Link to this contribution)
No.
Some colleagues accept the case for reform, but are opposed to the idea of election. We...; Lord Spellar | 548 c193 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c193 (Link to this contribution)
I commend the right hon. Gentleman on his persistence, which is now rewarded.; Lord Spellar | 548 c193 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Leader of the House for his usual courteous generosity. He claimed that what he says ...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c193 (Link to this contribution)
I now regret giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, because I am sure that there are other Membe...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 548 c193 (Link to this contribution)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 cc193-4 (Link to this contribution)
No, I am pressing on. Nothing in the Government’s Bill changes the current status of the second C...; Margot James | 548 c194 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend mentioned elected Members of the European Parliament. Does he not agree that...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c194 (Link to this contribution)
And how very wise Members of the European Parliament are not to interfere in my hon. Friend’s con...; Wayne David | 548 c194 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 c194 (Link to this contribution)
For the last time.; Wayne David | 548 c194 (Link to this contribution)
As the Government now accept that there is a need for consensus on the issue, will the Leader of ...; Lord Young of Cookham | 548 cc194-5 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman almost tests my patience. We are always open to discussion through the usual c...; Angela Eagle | 548 cc195-6 (Link to this contribution)
Yesterday we heard a string of passionate and heartfelt speeches about this, the most persistent ...; Lord Beith | 548 c196 (Link to this contribution)
It is my position, as the husband of a Member of the upper House, to speak dispassionately and wi...; Angela Eagle | 548 c196 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I support replacing the current House of Lords with a whol...; Guy Opperman | 548 c196 (Link to this contribution)
Yesterday the shadow Justice Secretary was asked four times how long the Opposition would require...; Angela Eagle | 548 c196 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the Bill has many controversial elements—; Guy Opperman | 548 c196 (Link to this contribution)
How long?; Angela Eagle | 548 c196 (Link to this contribution)
I am trying to give the hon. Gentleman an answer that befits the scale of the issues we face, rat...; Peter Bone | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is making a powerful point, but it should not be up to the Executive or the shadow ...; Angela Eagle | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
We look forward to seeing what proposals the Government actually bring forward. I tried earlier t...; Stephen Dorrell | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
Opposition Front Benchers asserted yesterday that the timetable motion on today’s Order Paper wou...; Angela Eagle | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
We have to see what progress the Bill makes. With good will on both sides, Parliament can do the ...; Bernard Jenkin | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
Programme motions are, in fact, a modern convention. Constitutional measures used to go through t...; Angela Eagle | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes his point in a characteristically effective way, and it is one with whic...; Chris Bryant | 548 c197 (Link to this contribution)
But one practice that has existed for hundreds of years is the one whereby, when a Bill receives ...; Angela Eagle | 548 cc197-8 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is exactly right, and that is why I attempted to obtain some clarity from the Lead...; Lord Austin of Dudley | 548 c198 (Link to this contribution)
If all three manifestos proposed House of Lords reform and the electorate had no choice, does tha...; Angela Eagle | 548 c198 (Link to this contribution)
All Labour Members stood on a manifesto that promised a referendum, and my hon. Friend makes an e...; Julian Lewis | 548 c198 (Link to this contribution)
I support the point made by the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin). I was first elected to...; Angela Eagle | 548 c198 (Link to this contribution)
We had a triple lock on that issue.; Anne Main | 548 c198 (Link to this contribution)
The Liberal Democrats stood on a manifesto that said:
“Liberal Democrats will do things dif...; Angela Eagle | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady makes a point of great insight and acuity. I merely say to her that the Liberal Dem...; Tony Lloyd | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
I think that my hon. Friend was in the Chamber earlier when the Deputy Prime Minister justified t...; Angela Eagle | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend’s point is very accurate and speaks for itself.; Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady asks why the Government do not want to go ahead with a referendum. I wonder whether...; Angela Eagle | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that the answer to the question is “823—and counting—appointed politicians who legi...; Ian Swales | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady remind the House of whether her party had a referendum on the removal of 550 h...; Angela Eagle | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
That was part 1 of a reform; it was an interim arrangement. I think that once we get to a stage w...; David Miliband | 548 c199 (Link to this contribution)
Is not the significant difference that in our 1997 election manifesto there was a clear and discr...; Angela Eagle | 548 c200 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend is exactly right.; Chris Huhne | 548 c200 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Angela Eagle | 548 c200 (Link to this contribution)
I have given way a lot and I want to get on to another worry that we have over the legislation, w...; Lord Blunkett | 548 c200 (Link to this contribution)
This is a crucial point. Is it not the case that the preamble to the Parliament Act 1911 presumed...; Angela Eagle | 548 c200 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend is right that the move from a wholly elected Chamber to one that is almost e...; Rory Stewart | 548 c200 (Link to this contribution)
Among all the discussion about reform, does the hon. Lady agree that the great opportunity for re...; Angela Eagle | 548 cc200-1 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the hon. Gentleman would agree that I have been making the case as strongly as I can ...; Chris Huhne | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
Is not the logic of what the hon. Lady says about accountability that anybody who is not going to...; Angela Eagle | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that is the logic of what I was trying to say. I was merely pointing out that havi...; Anne Main | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Angela Eagle | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
I have already given way to the hon. Lady.; Anne Main | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
On this point.; Angela Eagle | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
Go on, then.; Anne Main | 548 c201 (Link to this contribution)
On the hon. Lady’s point about safe seats and unaccountability, the average time in office for a ...; Angela Eagle | 548 c202 (Link to this contribution)
These are all legitimate areas of concern and debate, which is why we want the House to scrutinis...; Anna Soubry | 548 c202 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady makes some important points, but does she not agree that it is important that we st...; Angela Eagle | 548 c202 (Link to this contribution)
I respect the hon. Lady, but it is important that she recognises that it is not playing politics ...; Jack Straw | 548 c202 (Link to this contribution)
May I take my hon. Friend back to the issue of programme motions? She came here before we introdu...; Angela Eagle | 548 c202 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. As I said earlier, both the Leader of the Hou...; Lord Beith | 548 c202 (Link to this contribution)
It ought to be recognised that the hon. Lady has made very constructive points this afternoon, bu...; Angela Eagle | 548 c203 (Link to this contribution)
The difference between filibuster and debate is usually easy to see. The Opposition have said tha...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 548 c203 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady mentions the influx of life peers. Will she support a ballot of life peers, as was ...; Angela Eagle | 548 c203 (Link to this contribution)
There are all sorts of issues with exits from and entry to the House of Lords, which we should de...; 548 c203 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; John Bercow | 548 cc203-4 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Before I call the first Back-Bench speaker, may I, for the benefit of the House, now respo...; Gareth Johnson | 548 c204 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am not sure what I am more surprised about—the fact that we are having t...; Chris Huhne | 548 c204 (Link to this contribution)
When my hon. Friend stood at the last election, did he draw his electors’ attention to the conten...; Gareth Johnson | 548 c204 (Link to this contribution)
There was no commitment in the manifesto I stood on effectively to abolish the House of Lords.; Lord Harrington of Watford | 548 c204 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with most of the points my hon. Friend makes, but does he agree that it is possible to be...; Gareth Johnson | 548 cc204-5 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Very few Members of this House think that the House of Lords ...; John Bercow | 548 c205 (Link to this contribution)
Order. There are a lot of very noisy conversations taking place in the Chamber. These are serious...; Gareth Johnson | 548 c205 (Link to this contribution)
The reviewing Chamber acts as a check and balance without the necessity of playing to the gallery...; Sarah Wollaston | 548 c205 (Link to this contribution)
There are 79 Members in the other place who have expertise in engineering, medicine and health, a...; Gareth Johnson | 548 c205 (Link to this contribution)
And there are many more, of course, who have expertise in government.
The Lords will end up...; Ann Coffey | 548 cc205-6 (Link to this contribution)
I was a member of the Joint Committee on the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill. We sat from July 2...; Jack Straw | 548 c206 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend accept that the proposal that we agreed for long single terms of between 12 a...; Ann Coffey | 548 cc206-7 (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend.
That White Paper did not become a Bill. There w...; Stephen Lloyd | 548 c207 (Link to this contribution)
It is a privilege to speak in this debate. I am a new MP; I have been in the House for only two y...; Julian Lewis | 548 c208 (Link to this contribution)
On that very point, when the power of the European Union and its institutions is reduced to the l...; Stephen Lloyd | 548 c208 (Link to this contribution)
I look forward to that day because it will mean that the hon. Gentleman will be supporting the de...; Jamie Reed | 548 c208 (Link to this contribution)
I respect the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, but how do he and his party colleagues respond to th...; Stephen Lloyd | 548 c208 (Link to this contribution)
I can answer that by moving on to my observations about the contributions made yesterday by some ...; John Bercow | 548 c208 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The House is lapsing into improper use of language. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman i...; Stephen Lloyd | 548 cc208-9 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Speaker; I stand corrected and apologise.
Another point I discovered yesterda...; Mike Gapes | 548 c209 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Stephen Lloyd | 548 c209 (Link to this contribution)
I am going to continue. I was talking about a parade by some Labour Members of brute tribalism ov...; Jack Straw | 548 c209 (Link to this contribution)
As the House will be aware, I spent the last four years of the previous Labour Government leading...; Lord Beamish | 548 c209 (Link to this contribution)
Don’t we know it!; Jack Straw | 548 cc209-210 (Link to this contribution)
I had such wonderful support from my right hon. and hon. Friends for all those measures.
On...; Anne Main | 548 c210 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case, but I gently remind him that the British peop...; Jack Straw | 548 cc210-1 (Link to this contribution)
I entirely accept the hon. Lady’s point. In my written text, the word “wrong” is in inverted comm...; Mark Reckless | 548 c211 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman has accused the Deputy Prime Minister of being disingenuous, but he has ...; John Bercow | 548 c211 (Link to this contribution)
Order. May I say to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who is immensely versatile in...; Jack Straw | 548 c211 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to do so, Mr Speaker. I will substitute the word “unconvincing”.
I hope that the...; Chris Huhne | 548 c211 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Jack Straw | 548 cc211-2 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise, but I will not.
It is precisely when the political elite agree that our democr...; Lord Hart of Tenby | 548 cc212-3 (Link to this contribution)
Yesterday we were treated to nearly 40 speeches on this topic, of which only 10 were in support o...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 548 c213 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Hart of Tenby | 548 c213 (Link to this contribution)
No, I will not.; David Miliband | 548 c213 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Hart of Tenby | 548 c213 (Link to this contribution)
No, I will keep pressing on, if the right hon. Gentleman does not mind.
An obvious reason f...; Chris Huhne | 548 c213 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Hart of Tenby | 548 cc213-4 (Link to this contribution)
No. We have only to look at the voting records of our Members back in 2011 to realise that.; Karl Turner | 548 c214 (Link to this contribution)
I want to make my position clear from the outset: I will be supporting this Bill on Second Readin...; Chris Huhne | 548 c214 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is an exact parallel between the proposal in this Bill a...; Karl Turner | 548 c214 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, but this situation is very different. There are nume...; Fiona O'Donnell | 548 c214 (Link to this contribution)
On the Scottish Parliament—; Karl Turner | 548 cc214-5 (Link to this contribution)
That is one example, as my hon. Friend reminds us from a sedentary position.
My second area...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 548 c215 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is making a good speech. I merely ask him this: if he supports Lords reform, w...; Karl Turner | 548 c215 (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely support reform but, as I said from the outset, I am keen on reforming the Lords to t...; Penny Mordaunt | 548 c215 (Link to this contribution)
This Bill is concerned with the very heart of the constitutional settlement of this country. It i...; 548 c215 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Penny Mordaunt | 548 cc215-7 (Link to this contribution)
I will not give way, because of time and the fact that many colleagues want to speak.
There...; Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 548 cc217-8 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate. Many Members on both sides of the ...; Sammy Wilson | 548 c218 (Link to this contribution)
It is quite right that if laws are being scrutinised and made, that should be done by elected rep...; Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 548 cc218-9 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a very good point and I shall come on to it shortly.
Let me complete m...; Lord Harrington of Watford | 548 cc219-220 (Link to this contribution)
Mr Speaker, I reluctantly have to tell you that I will not support the Bill. The reason why is no...; David Miliband | 548 cc220-1 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington). I hope in my six min...; Richard Drax | 548 c221 (Link to this contribution)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that it is not so much that the system needs reformin...; David Miliband | 548 c221 (Link to this contribution)
Clearly the antics of some Members—a very small minority—brought Parliament into disrepute, but I...; George Howarth | 548 c221 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend says that the current system is opaque and exclusive. Does he agree that one...; David Miliband | 548 cc221-2 (Link to this contribution)
I ran on a manifesto that included a referendum and I support it absolutely.
Let me deal wi...; Hazel Blears | 548 c222 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; David Miliband | 548 c222 (Link to this contribution)
I will come back to my right hon. Friend if I can. The real question is whether an elected second...; Robert Buckland | 548 c222 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; David Miliband | 548 c223 (Link to this contribution)
I just do not have time; I am really sorry.
Lord Pannick’s point is that if we want to achi...; Julian Sturdy | 548 c223 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband). I appreciate...; Dan Rogerson | 548 c223 (Link to this contribution)
I have been elsewhere for some of the debate, so I may have missed this point being made earlier,...; Julian Sturdy | 548 cc223-4 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Yes, I am aware of that, and I do think it is a ...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 548 c224 (Link to this contribution)
What can the public do at the moment to kick out an underperforming life peer?; Julian Sturdy | 548 c224 (Link to this contribution)
Well, they cannot do anything, and that is why I will vote in favour of the Bill on Second Readin...; Frank Dobson | 548 cc224-5 (Link to this contribution)
Nothing will persuade me to support the Bill. I opposed the Labour Government’s proposals, and th...; Hazel Blears | 548 c225 (Link to this contribution)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?; Frank Dobson | 548 c225 (Link to this contribution)
No. I ought to get on.
Not content with what the Lords do now, an elected Chamber would dem...; Julian Lewis | 548 cc225-7 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), espec...; Tom Clarke | 548 cc226-8 (Link to this contribution)
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) and others, I served on the Joint Commi...; Jonathan Reynolds | 548 c228 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend’s reference to Scottish devolution is particularly appropriate in relation t...; Tom Clarke | 548 c228 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, and one that is worthy of more consideration.
The Joint...; Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 548 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is simply wrong that the Joint Committee’s report and...; Tom Clarke | 548 c229 (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady and respect her contribution to the Joint Committee. Like m...; Conor Burns | 548 c229 (Link to this contribution)
May I begin by warmly welcoming the Government’s decision to withdraw the programme motion this e...; Mike Gapes | 548 c229 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Conor Burns | 548 cc229-230 (Link to this contribution)
Let me just make some progress.
I want also to deal with some of the arguments that the Dep...; Chris Huhne | 548 c230 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Conor Burns | 548 c230 (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to give way to the right hon. Gentleman.; Chris Huhne | 548 c230 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman surely avoids a key point, which is that the previous, Labour Government faced...; Conor Burns | 548 c230 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the situation is unsustainable and untenable, a...; Stephen Williams | 548 c230 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. colleague for giving way. When he takes his constituents, schoolchildren or other...; Conor Burns | 548 c231 (Link to this contribution)
I think they are impressed that we accept more than 80% of the amendments that peers send back to...; Martin Horwood | 548 c231 (Link to this contribution)
If it was such a mainstream Conservative philosophy, as the hon. Gentleman says, how did Lords re...; Conor Burns | 548 cc231-2 (Link to this contribution)
It is a very mainstream view within the Conservative party, and I totally agreed with my right ho...; Mark Durkan | 548 cc232-3 (Link to this contribution)
In following the hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns), I acknowledge the strength and s...; Ian Jnr Paisley | 548 c233 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman diminishes the role that the bishops have played in the other House, but he mu...; Mark Durkan | 548 cc233-4 (Link to this contribution)
I would accept the hon. Gentleman’s point if he and his party colleagues had not voted against th...; Edward Leigh | 548 cc234-5 (Link to this contribution)
We have heard many fine speeches over the past two days, but one of the finest was made by my hon...; Chris Huhne | 548 c235 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that on D-day, when we invaded France, this Parliament was discussing...; Edward Leigh | 548 c235 (Link to this contribution)
They should, but the Government have got themselves into such a pickle over this that they will n...; Thomas Docherty | 548 c235 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman has repeatedly talked about weeks and months. May I assure Members on both sid...; Edward Leigh | 548 cc235-6 (Link to this contribution)
I think that that was said with a bit of irony and that the hon. Gentleman protests too much. Of ...; Mike Gapes | 548 cc236-7 (Link to this contribution)
We have been here before, in the last Parliament. In those debates, I was one of many Labour Memb...; Bernard Jenkin | 548 cc237-8 (Link to this contribution)
I commend the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), who is breaking ranks with his party for...; Bob Russell | 548 c238 (Link to this contribution)
Do I interpret from the speech of my hon. Friend and neighbouring MP a desire for the coalition t...; Bernard Jenkin | 548 cc238-9 (Link to this contribution)
It is not as though the Government were not already beset by problems and challenges on an awesom...; Lindsay Hoyle | 548 c239 (Link to this contribution)
Order.
7.46 pm; Stuart Bell | 548 cc239-241 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenki...; Rory Stewart | 548 cc240-2 (Link to this contribution)
It is unfortunate that the debate has turned into an attack on the Liberal Democrats. This is a h...; Barry Sheerman | 548 cc242-3 (Link to this contribution)
I have been impressed by many of the speeches today and yesterday. I felt rather ashamed of the H...; Chris Huhne | 548 c243 (Link to this contribution)
The alternative vote system can never be described as proportional representation. It is a majori...; Barry Sheerman | 548 cc243-4 (Link to this contribution)
I was trying to be kind to the Liberal Democrats, but obviously it has not worked.
By their...; Ian Swales | 548 c244 (Link to this contribution)
This is not a Liberal Democrat Bill, but a coalition Government Bill.; Barry Sheerman | 548 c244 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that perfectly. I know the system and what the coalition Government are about, and I...; 548 c244 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Nigel Evans | 548 c244 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The time limit is reduced to five minutes.
8.6 pm; Stephen Dorrell | 548 cc244-5 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). I have the same aspira...; Jesse Norman | 548 c245 (Link to this contribution)
It is an interesting solution to an elective dictatorship to propose two elective dictatorships. ...; Stephen Dorrell | 548 c245 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend repeats a point made several times in the debate, and I accept that it is a seriou...; Edward Leigh | 548 c245 (Link to this contribution)
But why should elected people in the other place be any more willing than elected people in this ...; Stephen Dorrell | 548 cc245-6 (Link to this contribution)
I do not agree with my hon. Friend. Either the Bill will create a logjam—because people in the ot...; Nick de Bois | 548 c246 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend not find it ironic, however, that he is presenting his case in a Parlia...; Stephen Dorrell | 548 c246 (Link to this contribution)
I am not going to be drawn into developing the examples that we have seen in the last couple of y...; Thomas Docherty | 548 cc246-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to catch your eye, Mr Deputy Speaker, in what has been a superb second day of this ...; Chris Huhne | 548 c247 (Link to this contribution)
It is very clear that this is a coalition Bill. If the hon. Gentleman had been in the Chamber whe...; Thomas Docherty | 548 c247 (Link to this contribution)
I was here throughout the afternoon, but the fact is that a plethora of Liberal Democrat Minister...; Conor Burns | 548 c247 (Link to this contribution)
Was it in the tuition fees debate?; Thomas Docherty | 548 c247 (Link to this contribution)
They were certainly not here for the tuition fees debate, and they were certainly not here to sup...; David Heath | 548 c247 (Link to this contribution)
The House of Lords.; Thomas Docherty | 548 cc247-8 (Link to this contribution)
Sorry, the House of Lords. However, there is no such provision to stop Members of the senate/Hous...; Baroness Burt of Solihull | 548 c248 (Link to this contribution)
Hear, hear.; Thomas Docherty | 548 c248 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady says, “Hear, hear,” yet she will be voting—and will continue to vote, I am sure, th...; Baroness Burt of Solihull | 548 c248 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the idea of a secular Parliament is wrong? If that is the case,...; Thomas Docherty | 548 c248 (Link to this contribution)
I suggest that the hon. Lady should go and read her Liberal Democrat Bill.
There are many i...; Robert Walter | 548 cc248-9 (Link to this contribution)
I support the coalition: I believe that it is the best way to deal with the financial crisis that...; Conor Burns | 548 c249 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is making some incredibly powerful points—; Nigel Evans | 548 c249 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Please would the hon. Gentleman face the House? We cannot hear him.; Conor Burns | 548 c249 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker.
My hon. Friend is making some incredibly powerful points, no...; Robert Walter | 548 cc249-250 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I can envisage a situation in which a media campaign against ...; Geoffrey Robinson | 548 c250 (Link to this contribution)
I will be brief, as many Members wish to speak and time is limited. There are three principal pos...; Mark Lazarowicz | 548 c251 (Link to this contribution)
I know that my hon. Friend speaks with sincerity, but does he really think there will ever come a...; Geoffrey Robinson | 548 c251 (Link to this contribution)
I take my hon. Friend’s point and accept it, but this is not really a priority. If we accept that...; Martin Horwood | 548 c251 (Link to this contribution)
Tom Paine first suggested reforms of the House of Lords more radical than those suggested by Lord...; Geoffrey Robinson | 548 cc251-2 (Link to this contribution)
I do not see that it is a priority, and I have no intention personally of speaking to it as a pri...; Andrew Griffiths | 548 c252 (Link to this contribution)
Having sat through the whole of this debate, let me say first that I am grateful to be called, bu...; Dan Poulter | 548 c252 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is making a good speech, but I disagree with him. Does he not accept that a Chambe...; Andrew Griffiths | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
That is rather like saying that someone can be a little bit pregnant. We are changing the relatio...; Christopher Pincher | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend not agree that giving more power to the other place without giving it more re...; Andrew Griffiths | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has made a very good point, and I commend the work that he has done in opposing th...; Martin Horwood | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
How, then, can the hon. Gentleman justify defending an institution in which Members appointed by ...; Andrew Griffiths | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
Because we all recognise that those people in the other place have expertise and knowledge, and t...; Lord Barwell | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
Lord Prescott.; Andrew Griffiths | 548 c253 (Link to this contribution)
I think we all accept that there are people in the other place we would perhaps not choose, but t...; Rushanara Ali | 548 cc253-5 (Link to this contribution)
The Labour party has a long and proud history of standing up for our democratic rights—standing u...; Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 548 cc255-6 (Link to this contribution)
I have sat in the Chamber for two days and I have heard some wonderful speeches, but it was not u...; Graeme Morrice | 548 c256 (Link to this contribution)
There can be little doubt that House of Lords reform is pretty low down people’s list of prioriti...; Tom Clarke | 548 c256 (Link to this contribution)
In Scotland, we had the convention, then an Act of Parliament was passed by this House and anothe...; Graeme Morrice | 548 c257 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I totally agree. The process that applied in Scotland was very consensus-based.
There ...; Alan Reid | 548 c257 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, that was in our manifesto, but this is a coalition Government and coalition involves comprom...; Graeme Morrice | 548 cc257-8 (Link to this contribution)
The Liberal Democrats have compromised their principles on this and many other issues.
We h...; Robin Walker | 548 cc258-260 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), and I agree with him ...; Michael McCann | 548 cc259-261 (Link to this contribution)
The rebellion on the programme motion has ended and the rebels have won. I congratulate those reb...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 548 c261 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Michael McCann | 548 c261 (Link to this contribution)
No, I will not give way, because many other Members want to get into the debate and time is short...; Richard Drax | 548 cc261-2 (Link to this contribution)
I learned today from an hon. Friend in the Tea Room that my parentage has been questioned on the ...; Mark Lazarowicz | 548 cc262-3 (Link to this contribution)
This is a complex Bill, but at its heart there is of course a simple principle that those who mak...; Tom Clarke | 548 c263 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend not agree that the Bill, in many cases and in many places, is opaque? For exa...; Mark Lazarowicz | 548 cc263-4 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) said, given that the Bill might end ...; Nigel Evans | 548 c264 (Link to this contribution)
Order. There is too much background noise—please keep it to a minimum.; Mark Lazarowicz | 548 c264 (Link to this contribution)
The Bill is in danger of being a measure that does not have the kind of popular support that woul...; Alun Cairns | 548 cc264-5 (Link to this contribution)
As a strong supporter of the coalition Government and the need for strong government at a time of...; Alun Cairns | 548 c265 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his contribution. However, the activities of a regional Membe...; Jake Berry | 548 c265 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that that issue is covered in the Bill. There will be a ba...; William Bain | 548 cc265-6 (Link to this contribution)
This has been a fascinating debate for Members of the House, but perhaps a perplexing one for the...; Mark Lazarowicz | 548 c266 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend refers to a long tussle. Is it not fair to say that it is right that there should ...; William Bain | 548 c267 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed, and in the period of that long tussle we have to decide whether we are prepared to accept...; Nick de Bois | 548 c267 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for this opportunity to share a few words with the House. I made a simple promise t...; Chris Huhne | 548 c267 (Link to this contribution)
When the hon. Gentleman faced the electorate in his constituency at the general election, did he ...; Nick de Bois | 548 cc267-8 (Link to this contribution)
Let me nail the myth that the Liberal Democrats continually present: there was no consistency amo...; Nia Griffith | 548 c268 (Link to this contribution)
My comments are not intended to be judgmental about the many Members of the other place who do su...; John Bercow | 548 c268 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I apologise for interrupting the hon. Lady, but hon. Members should calm down. Those who h...; Nia Griffith | 548 cc268-9 (Link to this contribution)
We have had nothing but excuses and a ridiculous amendment that would allow parishes that do not ...; Wayne David | 548 cc269-270 (Link to this contribution)
There are many of us in the House this evening who believe that reform of the House of Lords is n...; Charlotte Leslie | 548 c270 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that although there exists a rough set of plans in Lord ...; Wayne David | 548 cc270-1 (Link to this contribution)
It is indeed important to establish a consensus. I will come to that crucial point.
It is a...; Ian Swales | 548 c271 (Link to this contribution)
Will the shadow Minister tell us whether there was a referendum on the House of Lords Act 1999?; Wayne David | 548 cc271-2 (Link to this contribution)
I shall respond to the hon. Gentleman by making two points. First, that was hardly a profound con...; Lord Harper | 548 cc272-3 (Link to this contribution)
I was very pleased that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer joined us because he...; Jack Straw | 548 c273 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lord Harper | 548 c273 (Link to this contribution)
No, the right hon. Gentleman did not leave me any time to take interventions, so I am afraid I am...; Jack Straw | 548 c273 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Harper | 548 cc273-4 (Link to this contribution)
No, I will not.
We then established a Joint Committee which considered our draft Bill for n...
Subjects: Elections House of Lords House of Lords composition Reform
Legislation: House of Lords Reform Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

House of Lords Reform Bill

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