Opposition day on Wednesday, 28 November 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Liam Byrne. The answering member was Mark Hoban.

Jobs and Social Security

Eleventh opposition day debate (part two). Closure motion. Agreed to on question. Main question negatived on division (212 to 283).

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 554
Session: 2012-13
Department: Department for Work and Pensions
Procedure: Closure motions
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions: Liam Byrne | 554 c292 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move,
That this House notes that only just over two in every hundred people referr...; Lord Redwood | 554 c292 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some positive ideas on what improvements could be made? I a...; Liam Byrne | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman will be as concerned as I am about this question, because only 2.6% of p...; Bill Esterson | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend talks about the cost of the failure of this programme. Will he also mention ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
I know this is of great concern to my hon. Friend. There are more than six people chasing every j...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman wants to get the record straight. Will he now tell the House t...; Liam Byrne | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
I would be happy to trade arguments about our record with the Secretary of State, because while L...; Barry Sheerman | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that my constituents want a reflective debate today, not the sort of intervention they ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c293 (Link to this contribution)
The Work programme has got only just over 2% of the people in my hon. Friend’s constituency in th...; Andrew Bridgen | 554 c294 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Liam Byrne | 554 c294 (Link to this contribution)
In a moment.
The Government spent something like £63 million closing down the flexible new ...; Jessica Morden | 554 c294 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that yesterday’s figures for young long-term unemployed people we...; Liam Byrne | 554 c294 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Work programme has been an abject failure in her constitu...; Nick de Bois | 554 c294 (Link to this contribution)
Before we get too engrossed in bandying statistics around, is it not worth remembering that a job...; Liam Byrne | 554 c294 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that prompts the question why the DWP set the target in the first place. Indeed, yest...; Nick de Bois | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the right hon. Gentleman would accept, on reflection, that in achieving the goal of ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
There is an element of me that feels sorry for the Secretary of State. He is operating in an econ...; William Bain | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend has seen a successful job creation plan for the long-term unemployed in my c...; Liam Byrne | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Glasgow city council has lessons to teach all of us about wha...; Andrew Bridgen | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman talks about the Labour Government’s record of getting people into work. ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman should check his facts. The number of people on out-of-work benefits came down...; Andrew Bridgen | 554 c295 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman did not answer the question. I asked why the number of households in whi...; Liam Byrne | 554 c296 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid the hon. Gentleman has to check his facts. The truth is that Labour delivered 1 milli...; Gavin Shuker | 554 c296 (Link to this contribution)
Is not the reality even worse than my right hon. Friend paints it? [Interruption.] He says that h...; Liam Byrne | 554 cc296-7 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right: there is a bleak future for many young people in his constitu...; Andrew Bridgen | 554 c297 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Liam Byrne | 554 c297 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us what he thinks of that.; Andrew Bridgen | 554 c297 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way again. I would like to tackle him on the last Gov...; Liam Byrne | 554 c297 (Link to this contribution)
Let me give the hon. Gentleman some statistics. If he looked at the amount spent on benefits in 1...; Geraint Davies | 554 c297 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend will know that growth is at a standstill because of the collapse in consumer...; Liam Byrne | 554 c297 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is right. The Work programme has delivered only about 1% of his constituents into ...; Joan Walley | 554 c298 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government should be redoubling their efforts to invest ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c298 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has been a consistent champion of Stoke, and has consistently drawn attention to t...; Andrew Gwynne | 554 c298 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although it would be bad enough if just one of the elements...; Liam Byrne | 554 c298 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is exactly right. Many of our communities throughout Britain are being hit from al...; Andy Slaughter | 554 c298 (Link to this contribution)
No group is being hit harder than the homeless, or the most recently homeless. I do not know whet...; Liam Byrne | 554 c299 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that report to the House’s attention. I have not see...; Hywel Williams | 554 c299 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is being very generous. To complete ...; Liam Byrne | 554 cc299-300 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is right. That is just one more element of the wider picture that we are prese...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
The Labour motion is one of the stupidest motions I have ever had to deal with. It says very litt...; Liam Byrne | 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
I will take some interventions from the right hon. Gentleman after I have dealt with a few of the...; 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
As I have said, I will take some interventions after I have made a few rebuttal points.
If ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c300 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman after I have made this point. In fact, the total numb...; Liam Byrne | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
May I draw the Secretary of State’s attention back to the invitation to tender, which presumably ...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
Yet again, the right hon. Gentleman has defeated the first point that he made. In other words, th...; David Lammy | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
I said that I was going to make a few points and then give way.; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The right hon. Member for Tottenham knows that he cannot keep standing. I am sure that the...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
I just want to pick up on one point and then I will happily give way to the right hon. Gentleman....; Kate Green | 554 c301 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 cc301-2 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way in a moment, but I said that I was going to make these points.
Labour’s pol...; David Lammy | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
Can the Secretary of State confirm that, on his figures, he is talking about 4.5%, which is still...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
No, the figures we stand by are those we published yesterday. The point that I was making today t...; Liam Byrne | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Geraint Davies | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill in a moment, but some of his ...; Geraint Davies | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
Today, at that Dispatch Box, the Prime Minister said that 19,000 people out of 800,000 had gone i...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
I stand by the figures that we published yesterday—3.5% is exactly correct. The reality is that w...; Liam Byrne | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, who is being characteristically generous in giving way. ...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c302 (Link to this contribution)
That is simply not true. I do not want to spend any longer on this, but the point that I made ear...; Margot James | 554 c303 (Link to this contribution)
I visited EOS, our local provider in the black country, which gave me data to show far in excess ...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c303 (Link to this contribution)
The truth is that the previous Government did next to nothing for the seriously long-term unemplo...; Bill Esterson | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State is talking about a completely different world that is divorced from the re...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
Of course it was a different world—it was a world in which the previous Government thought that e...; Liam Byrne | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way, but I ought to deal with the other programme first, as the right hon. Gentleman ...; Liam Byrne | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
This is an important point for us to debate. I do not know whether the Secretary of State has see...; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Many Members wish to speak in the debate, so we must have shorter interventions and replie...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c304 (Link to this contribution)
Guided by you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I shall simply tell the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge...; Kate Green | 554 c305 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c305 (Link to this contribution)
I shall make some progress, but I promise to give way to the hon. Lady.
Let us deal with th...; Kate Green | 554 c305 (Link to this contribution)
The debate has moved on, but I wanted to say that the rise in social security spending under the ...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 cc305-6 (Link to this contribution)
I agree. The only way to look at these things is to consider the overall state of welfare spendin...; William Bain | 554 c306 (Link to this contribution)
In my constituency, just 70 people have been placed through the Work programme into sustainable e...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c306 (Link to this contribution)
The figures have been published. This is about start-up costs and the money that is paid for ever...; Lord McCabe | 554 c306 (Link to this contribution)
If I accept the Secretary of State’s proposition and that of the Minister of State, the hon. Memb...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 cc306-7 (Link to this contribution)
I happen to believe that the people who will admit that they failed are the Opposition. I hope th...; 554 c307 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c307 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I remind hon. Members that there is a 10-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches.
5...; Barry Sheerman | 554 cc307-8 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate, although I must say that there were moments when I ...; Ann McKechin | 554 c308 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes some good points about skills and training. Does he share my concern that th...; Barry Sheerman | 554 c308 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend will forgive me for knowing less about the situation in Scotland than I do about t...; Iain Duncan Smith | 554 c308 (Link to this contribution)
Given that the hon. Gentleman has asked about my noble friend, who is an excellent addition to ou...; Barry Sheerman | 554 cc308-9 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Secretary of State for that intervention, and I accept what he says. He knows that wh...; Jane Ellison | 554 c309 (Link to this contribution)
I rise merely to express agreement with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s argument on skills, an...; Barry Sheerman | 554 c309 (Link to this contribution)
That is why I spoke of our experience in the United Kingdom, which has good exemplars of signific...; Margot James | 554 c310 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Barry Sheerman | 554 c310 (Link to this contribution)
No, I am sorry.
Intergenerational worklessness is a dreadful scourge. We all see it on some...; Nigel Mills | 554 c310 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). I think that I agree w...; Sheila Gilmore | 554 c310 (Link to this contribution)
The problem I have with quoting the additional figures that have emerged from the trade associati...; Nigel Mills | 554 c311 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that I am the best person to answer that question. However, when we have a programm...; Liam Byrne | 554 c311 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is generous in giving way. Our point is that there is not enough fuel in the t...; Nigel Mills | 554 c311 (Link to this contribution)
One problem of the Work programme is that the year we are looking at contained the second part of...; Margot James | 554 c311 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend draws attention to some of the similarities between the Work programme and what we...; Nigel Mills | 554 c312 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The motion suggests that people would have been better off witho...; Ben Gummer | 554 c312 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is entirely right that the figures are disappointing. I am sure that he, like me, ...; Nigel Mills | 554 c313 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend reinforces the point that it is utterly unreasonable to say that the scheme is wor...; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c313 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I know a new Member will speak shortly, but could we just have a little quiet so we can he...; Nigel Mills | 554 c313 (Link to this contribution)
Opposition Members clearly do not want to hear the truth of my argument.
The Select Committ...; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 cc313-4 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Before I call the new hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), I remind Members t...; Lucy Powell | 554 cc314-6 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak in this important deb...; Guto Bebb | 554 cc316-7 (Link to this contribution)
It is a great pleasure to follow the maiden speech from the hon. Member for Manchester Central (L...; Nick de Bois | 554 c317 (Link to this contribution)
Is it not also worth highlighting the fact that Jobcentre Plus has a successful record of getting...; Guto Bebb | 554 c317 (Link to this contribution)
That is an important point. I have visited Jobcentre Plus in my constituency to pay tribute to th...; Jane Ellison | 554 c317 (Link to this contribution)
The rather dismissive attitude towards jobs in retail that my hon. Friend has described drives me...; Guto Bebb | 554 c317 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed. My experience of going around Tesco’s partnership stores, for example, has been quite ins...; Sheila Gilmore | 554 c317 (Link to this contribution)
The points the hon. Gentleman makes about the importance of employment are clearly correct. The r...; Guto Bebb | 554 cc317-8 (Link to this contribution)
I disagree on the whole. Quite often the current restriction means that when people go over a cer...; Rehman Chishti | 554 c318 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that a number of councils out there are working in partnership with Job...; Guto Bebb | 554 c318 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed, and that example should be replicated in other parts of the country, where partnership wo...; Paul Flynn | 554 c318 (Link to this contribution)
The results that we heard about yesterday cannot be compared with anything else that ever happene...; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c318 (Link to this contribution)
Order. We have a lot of speakers to get in, and we need shorter interventions. Otherwise, Members...; Guto Bebb | 554 cc318-320 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) seldom sees the bright side of life. The truth is t...; 554 c319 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c319 (Link to this contribution)
We are going to have to reduce the time limit to seven minutes, as I want to allow all Members to...; Geraint Davies | 554 cc319-321 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and more especially to follo...; Jim Shannon | 554 c321 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman experiencing in his constituency, as I am in mine, a greater demand from co...; Geraint Davies | 554 cc321-2 (Link to this contribution)
We are seeing the perverse irony that the welfare bill is going up and up, with more people going...; Andrew Bridgen | 554 c322 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman not concede that better utilisation of the social housing stock and an in...; Geraint Davies | 554 c322 (Link to this contribution)
I have been the housing chair for London and for Croydon. I know that it is possible to devise st...; Sheila Gilmore | 554 c322 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure my hon. Friend agrees that this is not an attempt to ensure that housing is distributed...; Lindsay Hoyle | 554 c322 (Link to this contribution)
Order. There is a danger that those who wish to make a speech later will not be able to do so. I ...; Geraint Davies | 554 cc322-3 (Link to this contribution)
As has already been said, the tax affects those with particular problems such as disabilities. If...; Priti Patel | 554 cc323-4 (Link to this contribution)
I welcome this debate, as it gives us an opportunity to highlight the positive steps that the Gov...; 554 c325 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Baroness Primarolo | 554 c325 (Link to this contribution)
Order. To ensure that all Members can participate in this debate, I am reducing the time limit, w...; Kate Green | 554 cc325-6 (Link to this contribution)
As others have said, the Work programme builds on a direction of travel that those on both sides ...; Mark Hoban | 554 c326 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Kate Green | 554 c326 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister clearly has a figure that he wants to offer me and I will be interested to hear it. ...; Mark Hoban | 554 c326 (Link to this contribution)
As the hon. Lady is so keen on evidence-based policy making, let me point out that the last unemp...; Kate Green | 554 cc326-7 (Link to this contribution)
That might be the case, but the Minister must also recognise that 40% of the new private sector j...; Andrew Bridgen | 554 cc327-8 (Link to this contribution)
I share the Secretary of State’s incredulity that the Opposition would choose to debate these iss...; David Lammy | 554 cc328-330 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate and to follow my good friend, my hon. F...; 554 c330 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Baroness Primarolo | 554 c330 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The winding-up speeches will start at 20 minutes to 7. I will divide the remaining time eq...; Ian Lavery | 554 cc330-1 (Link to this contribution)
I will obviously be very brief, Madam Deputy Speaker—I have no choice now.
Yesterday’s repo...; Sheila Gilmore | 554 cc331-2 (Link to this contribution)
Whenever any Government Minister, from the Prime Minister down, is asked what they are doing to t...; Stephen Timms | 554 cc332-5 (Link to this contribution)
We have had a good debate to which the backdrop is yesterday’s publication of the first Work prog...; Mark Hoban | 554 cc335-6 (Link to this contribution)
This useful debate has exposed comprehensively the emptiness of the Opposition’s policies on welf...; Kate Green | 554 c336 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Mark Hoban | 554 c336 (Link to this contribution)
I will not give way; the hon. Lady had her chance earlier.
The last labour market survey sh...; Geraint Davies | 554 c336 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Mark Hoban | 554 c336 (Link to this contribution)
Let me address the right hon. Member for Tottenham, who was critical of apprenticeships in retail...; Lord Wharton of Yarm | 554 c336 (Link to this contribution)
I welcomed the Minister to the north-east recently, and I am delighted to hear him say such posit...; Mark Hoban | 554 cc336-7 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to see programmes of reform to get people off benefit...; Stephen Timms | 554 c337 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Mark Hoban | 554 c337 (Link to this contribution)
I have three minutes left, so I am going to continue.
The other thing in the motion that ne...; Stephen Timms | 554 c337 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Mark Hoban | 554 c337 (Link to this contribution)
I am not going to give way. I want to try to address some of the points that have been raised in ...; Alan Campbell | 554 cc337-8 (Link to this contribution)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Quest...; Baroness Primarolo | 554 c338 (Link to this contribution)
I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Subjects: Social security benefits Unemployment Work programme
Contains statistics: Yes
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Jobs and Social Security

Secondary information

Librarians' tools