Debate on bill on Tuesday, 24 June 2014, in the House of Commons, led by David Jones. The answering member was Owen Smith.

Wales Bill

Report stage. New clause 1, agreed to on question. New clause 4, negatived on division (202 to 276). Clause 2, amendment negatived on division (196 to 278). Clauses 6, 13, 22, 27, 28 and Schedule 1, amendments made. Clause 19, amendment negatived on division (8 to 278). Third reading. Agreed to on question. Bill passed.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 583 cc221-289
Session: 2014-15
Department: Wales Office
Legislative stage: Third reading; Report stage
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Related items: Wales Bill 2013-14 to 2014-15
Thursday, 5 June 2014
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions: David Gauke | 583 c222 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.; Lindsay Hoyle | 583 cc222-3 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 1.
Ame...; David Gauke | 583 c223 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to return to the Bill. I will start with new clause 1 and amendments 2 to 5. The...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c223 (Link to this contribution)
In Committee, there was some confusion as to whether Kay Swinburne, the Conservative Member of th...; David Gauke | 583 c223 (Link to this contribution)
I fear that the hon. Gentleman may not recall that debate correctly. There is no confusion about ...; Owen Smith | 583 c224 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is right: there is no confusion. He clarified the position in Committee. Does he agr...; David Gauke | 583 cc224-5 (Link to this contribution)
All I can say is that Wales has a very good MEP in Kay Swinburne and I am delighted that she has ...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c225 (Link to this contribution)
In the light of what the Minister has just said, why has the Prime Minister made a manifesto pled...; David Gauke | 583 c225 (Link to this contribution)
No, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has not made a manifesto pledge. The Strathclyde Comm...; Wayne David | 583 c225 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give the House an assurance that what the Government propose today has the full...; David Gauke | 583 cc225-6 (Link to this contribution)
It is for this Parliament to determine what we should put in place in the Bill. We believe that o...; Owen Smith | 583 c226 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to do battle once more ...; Hywel Williams | 583 c226 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman has outlined three priorities. May I ask him, perhaps a little cheekily, which...; Owen Smith | 583 cc226-7 (Link to this contribution)
If I understand the hon. Gentleman’s question correctly, the answer is borrowing powers for Wales...; Mark Tami | 583 c227 (Link to this contribution)
As someone who represents a border constituency, I think that my hon. Friend touches on a very im...; Owen Smith | 583 c227 (Link to this contribution)
Absolutely. On previous occasions in the House I have outlined the difference between Wales and S...; Huw Irranca-Davies | 583 c227 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with my hon. Friend on the Front Bench. There is an ideological difference between the id...; Owen Smith | 583 c227 (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree. I have been at pains throughout our deliberations to make it clear that, in thi...; Alun Cairns | 583 c227 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman telling us that he is absolutely against lower taxes in Wales, and is he th...; Owen Smith | 583 c227 (Link to this contribution)
The latter part of that question would of course be a matter for the First Minister, were those t...; Lord Harper | 583 c228 (Link to this contribution)
I am now thoroughly confused about the hon. Gentleman’s position. If he is in favour, as I think ...; Owen Smith | 583 c228 (Link to this contribution)
That is a misrepresentation of my position, but I have come to expect little else from the hon. G...; David Jones | 583 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Can the hon. Gentleman clarify whether the Labour party in the Assembly will be pushing for an ea...; Owen Smith | 583 c228 (Link to this contribution)
It was well worth waiting for the Secretary of State to intervene, but I think that the answer is...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman therefore concerned that the 22 local authorities in Wales can all put forw...; Owen Smith | 583 cc228-9 (Link to this contribution)
That is a tendentious and off-piste point, and I do not intend to busy the Chamber by bothering t...; Glyn Davies | 583 c229 (Link to this contribution)
I would like some clarity about the Opposition’s position. We are being told that they will vote ...; Owen Smith | 583 cc229-230 (Link to this contribution)
I say again that we will support these measures. We will not press amendments 10 and 11 to a vote...; David Jones | 583 c230 (Link to this contribution)
I think that everyone in the House is now even more confused as a consequence of what the hon. Ge...; Owen Smith | 583 c230 (Link to this contribution)
I suspect that that reveals why the Secretary of State cannot speak to his own Bill and instead r...; David Gauke | 583 c230 (Link to this contribution)
In moving on to borrowing, the shadow Secretary of State is finding whole new areas in which he i...; Owen Smith | 583 c230 (Link to this contribution)
I will forgive the Exchequer Secretary’s slightly patronising tone and simply say that I absolute...; David Jones | 583 c231 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Owen Smith | 583 c231 (Link to this contribution)
I can see that the Secretary of State is champing at the bit. Why he did not simply do this in th...; David Jones | 583 c231 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman does not seem to understand that if there is never a referendum on income tax ...; Owen Smith | 583 c231 (Link to this contribution)
Absolutely, so perhaps the Secretary of State could come back to the Dispatch Box to explain why ...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc231-2 (Link to this contribution)
Diolch yn fawr, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to serve under your guidance as we discuss th...; Wayne David | 583 c232 (Link to this contribution)
Can the hon. Gentleman answer this simple question: are he and his party in favour of tax competi...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c232 (Link to this contribution)
Enabling the Welsh Government with tax-raising powers would incentivise the Welsh Government to i...; Lord Harper | 583 c232 (Link to this contribution)
It might help the House if we thought for a moment about what Opposition Members mean when they t...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c233 (Link to this contribution)
Well, that is the hon. Gentleman’s position. But if the Labour party’s position were to hold true...; Alun Cairns | 583 c233 (Link to this contribution)
Extending that logic beyond business rates, the same would apply to council tax rates. We have se...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc233-4 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. He says that there are 22 local authorities in Wales, a...; Wayne David | 583 c234 (Link to this contribution)
Is there not a contradiction between what the hon. Gentleman is now arguing for and his total sup...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc234-5 (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. As I have said, we endeavoured to preserve Silk d...; Wayne David | 583 c235 (Link to this contribution)
I take the hon. Gentleman back to his comments a moment ago, when he said he was supporting Silk....; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc235-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that second attempt, but I think I answered his question ...; David Gauke | 583 cc236-7 (Link to this contribution)
I shall briefly respond to a number of the points raised in the debate. The first related to the ...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c237 (Link to this contribution)
Given the comments of the Prime Minister and, especially, of the leader of the Conservative party...; David Gauke | 583 c237 (Link to this contribution)
I would say to the hon. Gentleman that what the Prime Minister says will be in the manifesto tend...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c237 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.; Lindsay Hoyle | 583 cc237-8 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 3—National Assembly ab...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc238-241 (Link to this contribution)
We should be using this Bill to empower the Welsh Government—with an arsenal of powers to enable ...; Mark Tami | 583 c240 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman please explain or elaborate on the imperialist nature of the M4, because ...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c240 (Link to this contribution)
The point I am making is that all the investment seems to be on an east-west basis, rather than o...; Hywel Williams | 583 c240 (Link to this contribution)
Apropos of that intervention, I would have thought that the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mar...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc240-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that that very useful intervention will be noted by the constituents of the hon. Member...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 c242 (Link to this contribution)
I am listening with extreme interest to the hon. Gentleman’s points. It seems to me that Plaid Cy...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 cc242-3 (Link to this contribution)
I have huge respect for the right hon. Gentleman. I will outline two alternative proposals that w...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 cc243-4 (Link to this contribution)
It was interesting to hear the points made by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jo...; Elfyn Llwyd | 583 c244 (Link to this contribution)
I am following the right hon. Gentleman’s argument and I fully accept what he says about the bene...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 c244 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench will elaborate a bit more on the matter, but my gu...; Hywel Williams | 583 c244 (Link to this contribution)
From my reading of new clause 4, it does propose a reserved powers model, but that is contingent ...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 c244 (Link to this contribution)
It certainly is not a wrecking tactic. I have made the position clear. I am just a Back Bencher, ...; Stephen Crabb | 583 c244 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the former Secretary of State for giving way. He is definitely not just a Back B...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 cc244-5 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think for one second that the model is a panacea for all the issues and problems that we...; Nia Griffith | 583 c245 (Link to this contribution)
The new clause calls on the Secretary of State to issue a report on the further legislative steps...; Mark Williams | 583 c245 (Link to this contribution)
At least three parties in the House support the reserved powers model, but can the hon. Lady expl...; Nia Griffith | 583 c245 (Link to this contribution)
That provision is to ensure that the report is actually laid. That is the point of it. It says, “...; Mark Williams | 583 c245 (Link to this contribution)
Is there any link with the point made by the hon. Member for Arfon about the financial provisions...; Nia Griffith | 583 c245 (Link to this contribution)
The whole point is that this is what we want to see. We are committed to a reserved powers model ...; Mark Williams | 583 c246 (Link to this contribution)
I share the passion for the reserved powers model. The point the hon. Lady is making about the co...; Nia Griffith | 583 c246 (Link to this contribution)
The important thing is that we are firmly committed to the reserved powers model and we wanted to...; Elfyn Llwyd | 583 c246 (Link to this contribution)
I am listening intently to the hon. Lady’s arguments about the benefits of a reserved powers mode...; Nia Griffith | 583 cc246-8 (Link to this contribution)
I very much hope that the right hon. Gentleman will welcome the move forward that we are making i...; Hywel Williams | 583 cc248-250 (Link to this contribution)
With all due respect to right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken today, I would like to begin ...; Guto Bebb | 583 c250 (Link to this contribution)
I am slightly confused about the argument. As the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, the situatio...; Hywel Williams | 583 cc250-1 (Link to this contribution)
My remarks, which will appear in print tomorrow, will repay close reading, as that was precisely ...; Wayne David | 583 cc251-2 (Link to this contribution)
I support granting and extending borrowing powers to the Welsh Government. It is important that t...; Mark Williams | 583 c252 (Link to this contribution)
Some parts of the Act contain even more obvious problems. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will be as ...; Wayne David | 583 c253 (Link to this contribution)
That is a fair point, and I will touch on it a little later. We have asymmetrical devolution in t...; Stephen Crabb | 583 c253 (Link to this contribution)
I genuinely wonder whether the hon. Gentleman is suffering from amnesia, as he was a part of a Go...; Wayne David | 583 c253 (Link to this contribution)
I just think it is very important to learn. I know that is anathema to the current Government, bu...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 c253 (Link to this contribution)
I remind my hon. Friend and the House that there are highly developed mechanisms in these islands...; Wayne David | 583 cc253-4 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. He has tremendous experience in these matters...; Guto Bebb | 583 c254 (Link to this contribution)
I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s comments, and to those of the right hon. Member...; Wayne David | 583 c254 (Link to this contribution)
I have no qualms at all about talking about England, because we are a United Kingdom, but if I de...; Stephen Crabb | 583 c254 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said that the purpose of amend...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c255 (Link to this contribution)
The Bill as I read it states that the Treasury has the final say on what the Welsh Government wil...; Stephen Crabb | 583 cc255-6 (Link to this contribution)
There is a line in the Bill that refers to Welsh Ministers being able to borrow with the approval...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c256 (Link to this contribution)
I can base my position only on the list of prequalified projects, which was last updated by the G...; Stephen Crabb | 583 cc256-7 (Link to this contribution)
All I can do is reiterate the information that I have received from the Treasury that there are i...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c257 (Link to this contribution)
We have had an interesting debate on this group of new clauses and amendment 8, three of which Pl...; Nia Griffith | 583 c258 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move amendment 13, page 1, line 9, leave out clause 2.; Baroness Primarolo | 583 cc258-262 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 14, in clause 28, page ...; Nia Griffith | 583 c262 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 13 would remove a clause which would make it possible for people to stand both on the r...; Pete Wishart | 583 c262 (Link to this contribution)
What advice has the hon. Lady had from her colleagues in Scotland on this issue, given that they ...; Nia Griffith | 583 cc262-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am not casting aspersions on any individual list candidates. We have two excellent Labour list ...; Lord Hain | 583 cc263-4 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, wish to speak in favour of amendment 13 and against clause 2 remaining in the Bill. The S...; Pete Wishart | 583 c265 (Link to this contribution)
I am genuinely interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s view on this issue. What advice does he h...; Lord Hain | 583 c265 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Baroness Primarolo | 583 c265 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Before you answer, Mr Hain, let me make it absolutely clear that we are talking about dual...; Lord Hain | 583 cc265-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, which directly answers the hon. Gentleman’...; Sian C James | 583 cc266-7 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to speak briefly in support of amendment 13 and against the removal of clause 2. I oppose ...; Lord Harper | 583 c267 (Link to this contribution)
We debated this issue at length in Committee. What the hon. Lady is really doing is criticising a...; Sian C James | 583 c267 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but it is not true that I am opposed to the list...; Bob Stewart | 583 c267 (Link to this contribution)
Does that mean that the hon. Lady is in favour of a complete list system or an individual candida...; Sian C James | 583 c267 (Link to this contribution)
I support having both first-past-the-post and regional Assembly Members. They add a great deal to...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c267 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Sian C James | 583 c267 (Link to this contribution)
I want to finish, because I promised to be brief and I want to keep my speech tight.
It is ...; David Jones | 583 cc267-9 (Link to this contribution)
With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will first address the Government amendments in thi...; Lord Hain | 583 c269 (Link to this contribution)
Is the Secretary of State aware of the evidence that Professor Roger Scully has brought forward? ...; David Jones | 583 c269 (Link to this contribution)
I clearly referred to a particular type of system, which is the majoritarian type. That is where ...; Lord Hain | 583 c269 (Link to this contribution)
Notwithstanding that advice, Professor Scully was simply correcting the Secretary of State on his...; David Jones | 583 c270 (Link to this contribution)
I have to take issue with the right hon. Gentleman. The reason for the abuse was that a particula...; David Jones | 583 c278 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
We have had a number of productive...; Lord Harper | 583 c278 (Link to this contribution)
In the debate in Committee on 6 May, at column 109, the Secretary of State committed to updating ...; David Jones | 583 c278 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me about that important point. I can tell ...; Owen Smith | 583 c278 (Link to this contribution)
Can the Secretary of State also inform the House on the relative performance of the NHS on either...; David Jones | 583 c278 (Link to this contribution)
I could rehearse the remarks that were made on the last occasion we discussed this issue, but the...; Alun Cairns | 583 c278 (Link to this contribution)
The shadow Welsh Secretary mentioned cancer waiting times, but does my right hon. Friend the Secr...; David Jones | 583 cc279-280 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The shadow Welsh Secretary ought to understand that ther...; Owen Smith | 583 cc280-1 (Link to this contribution)
I echo the Secretary of State’s thanks to colleagues from all parts of the House who have engaged...; Jonathan Edwards | 583 c281 (Link to this contribution)
Does not that point indicate that the hon. Gentleman has no faith in the Labour party’s abilities...; Owen Smith | 583 cc281-2 (Link to this contribution)
No, it does not indicate that at all. It indicates that we are not fantasists. We understand the ...; Glyn Davies | 583 cc282-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to be called to speak on an issue that is of great personal interest. As well as be...; Elfyn Llwyd | 583 c283 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman said that he had been in and out of the debate, and I accept that—so have I. M...; Glyn Davies | 583 cc283-4 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that. He has been a friend for a long time. It is reassuring that he h...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 cc284-5 (Link to this contribution)
It is a great privilege to speak on Third Reading of a Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Po...; Glyn Davies | 583 c285 (Link to this contribution)
I would like to reassure the right hon. Gentleman that I do not think the Labour party would have...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 cc285-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that.
The devolution of extra powers was supported ...; Elfyn Llwyd | 583 c286 (Link to this contribution)
There is one further problem with the borrowing situation in the Bill. Why should the Westminster...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 c286 (Link to this contribution)
I think they will be right so to do. There is a lot of work to be done by their lordships, partic...; David Jones | 583 c286 (Link to this contribution)
I am reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but the intervention by the right hon. Memb...; Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 583 c286 (Link to this contribution)
In that case, we are all right, are we not, and we can see what happens next?
These detaile...; Mark Williams | 583 c286 (Link to this contribution)
It is a privilege to say a few words in support of the Bill on its Third Reading.
The Silk ...; Roger Williams | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
Many tributes have been paid to my constituent, Mr Paul Silk. It is extraordinary that because of...; Mark Williams | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
I very much agree with my hon. Friend. Paul Silk has done the politics of consensus a great servi...; Bob Stewart | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
A very good one.; Mark Williams | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed—he is a very good Secretary of State on many issues.
I remind my hon. Friend the Mem...; Elfyn Llwyd | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
Is it possible that the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) is being churlish?; Mark Williams | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
I could not possibly comment, but I will give way to him.; Glyn Davies | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
I would just like to say that the late, great Baron Hooson was a wonderful Member of Parliament w...; Mark Williams | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend says that with great sincerity, and I know him to be a sincere man. I just wish to...; Susan Elan Jones | 583 c287 (Link to this contribution)
I would not wish the hon. Gentleman to continue without mentioning one of his predecessors, Lord ...; Mark Williams | 583 cc288-9 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, and I agree with that. I can promise her, very much ...
Subjects: Powers National Assembly for Wales Wales Welsh Government
Legislation: Government of Wales Act 2006; Wales Bill 2013-14 to 2014-15
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Wales Bill

Secondary information

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