Debate on bill on Wednesday, 10 December 2014, in the House of Commons, led by Stephen Crabb. The answering members were Alun Cairns and Owen Smith.

Wales Bill

Programme motion (No. 3) on proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments and subsequent stages. Agreed to on question. Lords amendments considered. The Deputy Speaker announced that Lords amendments 1 to 17 engaged Commons financial privilege. Lords amendment 1, discussed with Lords amendments 2 to 13, and 17. All agreed to on question, with Commons financial privilege waived. Lords amendment 14, discussed with Lords amendments 15 and 16. All agreed to on question, with Commons financial privilege waived.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 589 cc922-950
Session: 2014-15
Department: Wales Office
Legislative stage: Lords amendments
Procedure: Programme motions
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Related items: Wales Bill 2013-14 to 2014-15. Lords amendments.
Tuesday, 25 November 2014
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions: Baroness Primarolo | 589 c923 (Link to this contribution)
I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amend...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c923 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.; Baroness Primarolo | 589 c923 (Link to this contribution)
With this we may take Lords amendments 2 to 13 and 17.; Stephen Crabb | 589 cc923-4 (Link to this contribution)
Taken together, these amendments remove the so-called lockstep mechanism from the income tax prov...; Sammy Wilson | 589 c924 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State has outlined the advantages of the devolution of those additional powers. ...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c924 (Link to this contribution)
Part of devolving any tax—income tax or any other fiscal power—is the creation of an incentive fo...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c924 (Link to this contribution)
My reading of the Office for Budget Responsibility figures, published last week, was that the Wel...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c924 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot provide a specific analysis in line with the question, but I agree with the general thru...; Jonathan Evans | 589 c925 (Link to this contribution)
Let me be the first to congratulate my right hon. Friend on his recognition overnight as the Wels...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c925 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is exactly right and characteristically articulates his point better than anybody ...; Owen Smith | 589 c925 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State speaks of the incentives that these powers would give to the Welsh Governm...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c925 (Link to this contribution)
It is entirely up to Welsh Ministers how they choose to use these tools. I am surprised by what t...; Sammy Wilson | 589 c925 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Secretary of State accept, though, that unless we have the correct formula for deciding ...; Stephen Crabb | 589 cc925-6 (Link to this contribution)
I do not dismiss the risk that the hon. Gentleman has outlined, but I think he exaggerates its im...; Owen Smith | 589 c926 (Link to this contribution)
May I be the second Member of this House to congratulate the Secretary of State on becoming Welsh...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c926 (Link to this contribution)
For clarification, the shadow Secretary of State has accurately reported a quote of mine that app...; Owen Smith | 589 cc926-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to agree that that is how the article went on, but it did indeed describe devolution a...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c927 (Link to this contribution)
Labour’s policy is to have a constitutional convention. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, in the...; Owen Smith | 589 cc927-8 (Link to this contribution)
No. I am saying that if there were a Labour Government, we would have a constitutional convention...; Alun Cairns | 589 c928 (Link to this contribution)
The phrase “begging bowl”, as used in this context, originated with former First Minister Rhodri ...; Owen Smith | 589 c928 (Link to this contribution)
It was deployed in an entirely different context. The implication of the Secretary of State’s pej...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c928 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the shadow Secretary of State is getting slightly bogged down and has now resorted t...; Owen Smith | 589 c928 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State makes my point for me because I do not for a minute subscribe to the notio...; Ian Lucas | 589 c928 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to be wary of the politics of the hospital pass in Wales? ...; Owen Smith | 589 c928 (Link to this contribution)
Nor do I and, more importantly, nor do the people of Wales—that is why they do not elect Tories i...; Sammy Wilson | 589 c929 (Link to this contribution)
In light of the language about money given to the devolved Administrations being “handed down”, r...; Owen Smith | 589 c929 (Link to this contribution)
In a nutshell, the hon. Gentleman, who is expert in this matter, having been the Finance Minister...; Mark Williams | 589 c929 (Link to this contribution)
Although I share the Secretary of State’s impatience for the Assembly Government to be speedy in ...; Owen Smith | 589 cc929-930 (Link to this contribution)
That is not a bad idea. We have recently heard Government statements about the reduction in the B...; Jonathan Evans | 589 c930 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman should be a bit cautious in his dismissal of the Conservative party, given thi...; Owen Smith | 589 c930 (Link to this contribution)
To paraphrase the infamous, notorious entry in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is not a question...; Jonathan Evans | 589 c930 (Link to this contribution)
It is the same as the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain); Owen Smith | 589 c930 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed, but I do not suggest for a minute that there is any prospect of my right hon. Friend bein...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c931 (Link to this contribution)
I watched with great interest the hon. Gentleman’s prophecy of doom on “Sunday Politics”. I have ...; Owen Smith | 589 c931 (Link to this contribution)
No, it is project reasoned analysis of the numbers, and that project shows clearly a £66 billion ...; Ian Lucas | 589 c931 (Link to this contribution)
In support of that point, is my hon. Friend aware that in Wrexham median wages fell by 7.4% in th...; Owen Smith | 589 cc931-2 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend reinforces my point. We know that the Welsh economy has historic weaknesses becaus...; Glyn Davies | 589 c932 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the occasion of the Bill’s return from the House of...; Jonathan Evans | 589 c932 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend, through his service in the Assembly, has been one of the individuals who has enca...; Glyn Davies | 589 cc932-3 (Link to this contribution)
Nowhere has that been more obvious than in the contribution from those on the Front Bench when we...; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c933 (Link to this contribution)
I am following the hon. Gentleman’s argument and thinking about what the Labour spokesman said. W...; Glyn Davies | 589 cc933-4 (Link to this contribution)
I would be more encouraged if I thought the day of the week was the reason. I think it is a despe...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c934 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to make a short contribution to this debate, primarily to welcome these Lords am...; Mark Williams | 589 c934 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman will remember that there were exceptions. I was pleased to support Plaid Cymru...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c934 (Link to this contribution)
I stand corrected. To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, he has voted with us several times and broke...; Ian Lucas | 589 c934 (Link to this contribution)
If the Smith commission is not in accordance with the vow that was given, why did the Scottish Na...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 cc934-5 (Link to this contribution)
The commission’s remit is not one of its own choosing, but the SNP decided to act in the best int...; Geraint Davies | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that if Wales has its own powers to set both a higher and a lower ...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
I am interested in this line of tax harmony across the UK being put forward by the Labour party. ...; Geraint Davies | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way again?; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
I think I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s point.
In conclusion, the general election is ...; Geraint Davies | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
I come here with an open mind about these tax issues, but I must confess that I have major concer...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman and I are both Swansea city supporters and I am grateful that he has been kind...; Geraint Davies | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
I can see that the hon. Gentleman is wearing black and white.; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c935 (Link to this contribution)
This is my wedding suit, or rather the suit I had with my wedding suit. It has led to much commen...; Baroness Primarolo | 589 c936 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I have no idea what is being talked about here. We are not discussing Swansea football clu...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c936 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for saving me because my good friend was distracting ...; Geraint Davies | 589 c936 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Baroness Primarolo | 589 c936 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr is now trying to tempt his friend—having c...; Geraint Davies | 589 cc936-7 (Link to this contribution)
Let me publicly assure Mrs Edwards that the wedding was not spurious. I congratulate the hon. Gen...; Sammy Wilson | 589 c937 (Link to this contribution)
I am glad to learn that the hon. Gentleman has now joined the Unionists in his heart, but does he...; Baroness Primarolo | 589 c937 (Link to this contribution)
Order. This is ridiculous. The debate is degenerating into some sort of Christmas party. Members ...; Geraint Davies | 589 cc937-8 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The focus of this debate is the dif...; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c938 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Geraint Davies | 589 c938 (Link to this contribution)
Please do not draw me on to anything wide of the mark.; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c938 (Link to this contribution)
I have no intention of drawing the hon. Gentleman wide of the mark. Experience shows that when co...; Geraint Davies | 589 c938 (Link to this contribution)
That is an interesting point, but it does intrinsically depend on the elasticity of demand. At a ...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c938 (Link to this contribution)
I will be very brief as there is another set of Lords amendments that we need to debate.
We...; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c938 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Stephen Crabb | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, who was rightly recognised last year as the MP of th...; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
And I am intervening on a Member of even higher status.
Is it not interesting that the excu...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We end the parliamentary passage of the Bill exactl...; Ian Lucas | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Stephen Crabb | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
I will not, because there is another group of Lords amendments to discuss.
I should like to...; Alun Cairns | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 14.; Baroness Primarolo | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 15 and 16.; Alun Cairns | 589 c939 (Link to this contribution)
These amendments provide that, when a resolution to hold a referendum on income tax powers is mov...; Chris Ruane | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has mentioned the registration of young voters in Scotland. What was done there to g...; Alun Cairns | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The Bill contains measures to encourage the Assembly...; Chris Ruane | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
Has the Minister heard of an organisation called Bite the Ballot? It can go into sixth forms and ...; Alun Cairns | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am not familiar with that organisation, so it woul...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is right to say that the referendum in Scotland reinvigorated the political process ...; Alun Cairns | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
We spent the earlier part of this debate discussing Lords amendments relating to the referendum, ...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
My point is that if we are to have a referendum, it needs to be on a point of principle, and the ...; Alun Cairns | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure where this is going, but I accept that the engagement of young people is exceptiona...; Glyn Davies | 589 c940 (Link to this contribution)
I questioned the need for a referendum. Although we accept that it is part of the Bill, does the ...; Alun Cairns | 589 c941 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that, and I pay tribute to him for his speech. The debate on ...; Guto Bebb | 589 c941 (Link to this contribution)
On the amendment that allows the Assembly to decide on the franchise for the referendum on tax po...; Alun Cairns | 589 c941 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I do not agree with him on that specifi...; Huw Irranca-Davies | 589 c941 (Link to this contribution)
Further to the points made by the hon. Members for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)...; Alun Cairns | 589 cc941-2 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, but that is a major constitutional change covering...; Huw Irranca-Davies | 589 c942 (Link to this contribution)
To assist the debate, may I use the example of a 96-year-old person whom I met on Sunday? He was ...; Alun Cairns | 589 c942 (Link to this contribution)
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and to the two constituents in my own constitu...; Mark Williams | 589 c942 (Link to this contribution)
How are we to tell constituents that we are, on the one hand, allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vot...; Alun Cairns | 589 c942 (Link to this contribution)
I suggest that the age of majority is different for different processes across the United Kingdom...; Geraint Davies | 589 c942 (Link to this contribution)
It is one thing to say that there is a strong case for people of 16 to have a vote as they have a...; Alun Cairns | 589 cc942-3 (Link to this contribution)
I think the hon. Gentleman is underestimating the capacity of young people to grasp technicalitie...; Nia Griffith | 589 cc943-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am pleased to put on record Labour’s support for the Lords amendments to clause 13 and schedule...; Jonathan Edwards | 589 c944 (Link to this contribution)
Plaid Cymru tabled amendments similar to those that the hon. Lady mentions during the Bill’s pass...; Nia Griffith | 589 c944 (Link to this contribution)
I have made it clear what our policies are.
With the advent of individual voter registratio...; Chris Ruane | 589 c944 (Link to this contribution)
A good way of ensuring that there is 100% registration of young people, instead of the current re...; Nia Griffith | 589 c944 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Lowering the voting age to 16 could provide an impetus for reg...; Roger Williams | 589 c944 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Lady agree that as well as a drive to get registration as high as possible, efforts...; Nia Griffith | 589 c945 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed. The Welsh Government have made significant progress on that matter with the Welsh baccala...; Susan Elan Jones | 589 c945 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a fundamental inconsistency in the Government’s position?...; Nia Griffith | 589 c945 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the Minister will clarify that later.
In my long experience as a teacher, I always ...; Geraint Davies | 589 c945 (Link to this contribution)
In general, for the reasons that we have just heard, I am in favour of reducing the voting age to...; Chris Ruane | 589 cc945-6 (Link to this contribution)
I welcome the Government’s proposals to give 16 to 18-year-olds a vote in a referendum on income ...; Geraint Davies | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of information, I do.; Chris Ruane | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
That is as may be.
It is incumbent on us and the National Assembly for Wales to make sure t...; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s argument. Surely part of our function is to ensure that we have...; Chris Ruane | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
I agree entirely, but that should not be left to a short campaign two or three weeks before a ref...; Stephen Crabb | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
I know that the hon. Gentleman is in no way belittling primary school children, but I should say ...; Chris Ruane | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I used to delegate the collection of the orange squ...; Mark Williams | 589 c946 (Link to this contribution)
Like the hon. Gentleman, I used to teach primary school children. He will be aware of the sense o...; Chris Ruane | 589 c947 (Link to this contribution)
I agree entirely. I would prefer it if young people were able to vote in all elections. My hon. F...; Elfyn Llwyd | 589 c947 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that when we come to discuss things economic with ...; Geraint Davies | 589 c947 (Link to this contribution)
That was what I learned in school.; Chris Ruane | 589 cc947-8 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is taking issue with the right hon. Gentleman. There is a place for such terminolo...; Alun Cairns | 589 cc948-9 (Link to this contribution)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) for the positive way in which he...; Nick Smith | 589 c949 (Link to this contribution)
It is a shame that the Minister is speaking on a sour note. May I ask him to bear in mind the poi...; Alun Cairns | 589 cc949-950 (Link to this contribution)
I do not intend to be sour in any way, shape or form. I want to be positive, because the Bill wil...
Subjects: Devolution National Assembly for Wales Public finance Taxation Welsh Government
Legislation: Wales Bill 2013-14 to 2014-15
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Wales Bill

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