Debate on bill and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 11 October 2017, in the House of Commons, led by Mel Stride.

Finance Bill

Committee stage. Amendment 1 to clause 5, discussed with amendments 2 to 4 and clause stand part. Negatived on division (269 to 311). Amendment 2 negatived on division (272 to 312). Amendment 4 negatived on division (281 to 312). Clause 5 agreed to. Amendment 13 to clause 15, discussed with clause stand part and new clause 1 (Review of conditions under which business investment relief is available) and new clause 3 (Review of the efficacy of the conditions for business investment relief). Amendment withdrawn. Clause 15 agreed to. New clause 1 negatived on division (274 to 309). Clause 25, discussed with new clause 2 (Review of changes to chargeability of trading profits to corporation tax at Northern Ireland rate), debated and agreed to on question. New clause 2 negatived on division (231 to 308). Bill (clauses 5, 15 and 25) reported without amendment. Remainder of bill to be examined in Public Bill Committee.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 629 cc346-406
Session: 2017-19
Department: Treasury
Legislative stage: Committee stage
Procedure: New clauses
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Related items: Finance Bill 2017-19
Wednesday, 6 September 2017
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions: Peter Dowd | 629 c348 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move amendment 1, page 12, leave out lines 8 to 12.
This amendment removes the pow...; Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 629 c348 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 12, page 13, line 27, a...; Peter Dowd | 629 cc348-9 (Link to this contribution)
To be fired from a job is perhaps one of the most difficult experiences for an employee. There ar...; Lucy Frazer | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman rightly points out the devastating consequences for people who lose their jobs...; Peter Dowd | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)
This is not relevant to the debate, but a significant number of those jobs are incredibly low pai...; Lord Harper | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the concerns that those workers will be facing, but he know...; Peter Dowd | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)
The only people who are scaremongering are this Government who are threatening to tax people’s re...; Mel Stride | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that when a tribunal has granted an award on the grounds of discr...; Peter Dowd | 629 c350 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with that particular point.
We know the Government’s overall stated aim is to crack...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c350 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with everything my hon. Friend says, of course. Does he agree that a lump sum on terminat...; Peter Dowd | 629 cc350-1 (Link to this contribution)
Again, that goes to the heart of the issue. The Government are trying to focus on a particular mo...; Alex Burghart | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that clause 15 will bring more money into this country, which is ...; Peter Dowd | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
We will deal with that a little later. The hon. Gentleman may want to pay attention to my hon. Fr...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
Is it not the case that the Government are squeezing money out of people who cannot escape from t...; Peter Dowd | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend, as ever, puts it in a nutshell. That is the case.
Has the Minister read cla...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that under this Government we have made the largest strides to clo...; Peter Dowd | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
That will be dealt with later, but it is not the case for many multinationals. The papers are str...; Mel Stride | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for generously giving way. The latest figure for the tax gap is 6.5%, ...; Peter Dowd | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)
It does not include profit shifting from multinationals. I am quite happy to defend the record of...; Lucy Frazer | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in taking interventions. He suggests that the Conservat...; Peter Dowd | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)
When we take into account cuts to working tax credits and changes to benefits, that does not stac...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)
Why is the hon. Gentleman discussing removing the power of unfair dismissal when that is neither ...; Peter Dowd | 629 cc352-3 (Link to this contribution)
Because it goes to the heart of this Government’s attitude—[Interruption.] Narrative; that is a v...; Lord Harper | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)
I will deal with the amendments and some of the issues introduced by the hon. Member for Bootle (...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman suggests that Governments effectively have no role in creating jobs. The...; Lord Harper | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)
I completely agree, but the hon. Gentleman misquotes me. I did not say that Government have no ro...; Catherine West | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)
Could the right hon. Gentleman explain how, when he was Chief Whip, Thames Water failed to pay ta...; Lord Harper | 629 cc354-5 (Link to this contribution)
I have not got any idea. I was not Chief Whip between 2010 and 2014. Individual taxpayer matters ...; Charlie Elphicke | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend is making an incredibly powerful argument. I was just considering his remark...; Lord Harper | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is right. We hear a lot from the Opposition about clamping down on evasion and agg...; Catherine West | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)
The list definitely dates from 2010—if I am not mistaken, that was when the Tory Government came ...; Lord Harper | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)
There are a couple of things in what the hon. Lady says. She is absolutely right that we need to ...; Anneliese Dodds | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)
I have seen some of this from the inside, within the European Union. For example, I have seen mea...; Lord Harper | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)
No. First, it cannot just be done at European Union level—[Interruption.] No, we have to do it gl...; Catherine West | 629 c356 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Harper | 629 c356 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot take an intervention when I am still dealing with the first one. The base erosion and pr...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 cc356-7 (Link to this contribution)
It is good to be back in the House after a bit of a recess and to be here again talking about the...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c357 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady may remember that the tax expert Richard Murphy calculated at one point that the ge...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c357 (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely agree and I think that the tax gap is probably significantly larger than the Governm...; James Cleverly | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)
“The narrative”—those were the word used by the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman in response to t...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that a small business owner with just a couple of staff has to go throu...; James Cleverly | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will respond to her point in a few moments, but it is a ver...; Anneliese Dodds | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)
indicated dissent.; James Cleverly | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)
Above the £30,000 threshold, there are tax treatments. Through the Bill, the Government are seeki...; Anneliese Dodds | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)
The threshold.; James Cleverly | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, but at the moment it is £30,000, and that is what it says here—[Interruption.]; Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)
Order. There are too many sedentary interventions, and it makes it rather difficult for the Hansa...; James Cleverly | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to take interventions, but I have never been a particularly good lip reader, so the Op...; Peter Dowd | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in the light of the shake-up in these organisations and the dr...; James Cleverly | 629 cc359-360 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman will be unsurprised to hear that I do not agree with him. The Bill is where th...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)
I am guessing that the hon. Gentleman is unaware—perhaps he is not—that “injury to feelings” is a...; James Cleverly | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for informing me of that. I am more than happy to look in more detail at th...; Kit Malthouse | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)
I am seeking to ensure my hon. Friend understands that this does not benefit the companies; this ...; James Cleverly | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. There is little direct financial benefit to the com...; Chris Philp | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)
NI.; James Cleverly | 629 cc360-1 (Link to this contribution)
Although, as I am reminded, there is an NI implication. Again, I have heard a number of anecdotes...; Ellie Reeves | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. Before entering this place, I was an e...; Charlie Elphicke | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is a making a strong and passionate case. My concern was industrial-scale tax avoid...; Ellie Reeves | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)
This is not about big corporates; I am talking about adequately compensating people who have been...; Catherine West | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is curious that, between 2010 and 2014, such a large company as...; Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely agree. The clause will penalise people who have lost their jobs and people who have ...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
May I deal with the intervention I am currently dealing with first?
People who have lost th...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is talking about people who have lost their jobs who have been discriminated agains...; Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
Discrimination is relevant to the debate, because the Bill would introduce legislation that would...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
I have already given way several times; I wish to make some progress.
Consider the example ...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is being extremely generous in giving way. I just wish to put on the record that di...; Ellie Reeves | 629 cc362-3 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is talking about discrimination awards in employment tribunals; I am talking about ...; Neil O'Brien | 629 c363 (Link to this contribution)
The shadow Minister said that the measures in the Bill are part of a wider pattern of Government ...; Catherine West | 629 c363 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Neil O'Brien | 629 c363 (Link to this contribution)
I shall make some progress.
Realistically, we cannot will the end of reducing tax avoidance...; Catherine West | 629 c363 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Neil O'Brien | 629 cc363-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am just about to conclude.
The measures in clause 5 are good, and they are part of a wide...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c364 (Link to this contribution)
I will speak only very briefly in support of the Labour amendments as most of what I would say ha...; Catherine West | 629 c364 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a pity that, since the start of the new Government, Mr Pickl...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 cc364-5 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point.
The reality is that many Government Members have...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 cc365-6 (Link to this contribution)
This is indeed an important Bill. I look forward to serving on the Bill Committee and to helping ...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c366 (Link to this contribution)
Just on that point about small businesses, I agree with the hon. Lady that they are immensely val...; Baroness Maclean of Redditch | 629 c366 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am sure that members of the Treasury team are ...; Eddie Hughes | 629 cc366-7 (Link to this contribution)
I often think, when I get to my feet in the Chamber, that my job is not really to talk to the peo...; Peter Dowd | 629 c367 (Link to this contribution)
Was it not the hon. Gentleman’s party that voted against the minimum wage?; Eddie Hughes | 629 c367 (Link to this contribution)
I think I remember the hon. Gentleman saying, “Let’s not talk about the past. Let’s talk about wh...; Nusrat Ghani | 629 cc367-8 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker—sorry, I mean Dame Rosie. I have just been thrown by that magnific...; Colin Clark | 629 c368 (Link to this contribution)
The oil downturn has had an enormous effect in my constituency and in that of the hon. Member for...; Nusrat Ghani | 629 cc368-9 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is spot on. We want absolute clarity. As I continue with my speech, the Committee ...; Mel Stride | 629 c369 (Link to this contribution)
What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Rosie, and to respond to the first o...; Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c369 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves) made the point that the tax-...; Mel Stride | 629 cc369-371 (Link to this contribution)
This is one of the most generous thresholds in the world. In fact, there is no threshold at all i...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c371 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is concerned that some people might be exploiting a loophole, but as a result he has...; Mel Stride | 629 c372 (Link to this contribution)
The problem is that one cannot escape the possibility that the employer and the employee, who cou...; Peter Dowd | 629 c372 (Link to this contribution)
The Government seem to have taken a scattergun rather than forensic approach to this matter, affe...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c386 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move amendment 13, page 22, line 21, leave out
“on or after 6 April 2017”
an...; George Howarth | 629 cc386-7 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause stand part.
New clau...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c387 (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate having the opportunity to speak in this second part of the debate on the Finance Bil...; Lord Mackinlay of Richborough | 629 c387 (Link to this contribution)
The amount of investment that has come to the UK from non-doms is £1.6 billion since 2012. I hope...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 cc387-8 (Link to this contribution)
Is that through business investment relief or from non-doms in general? We asked for those figure...; Vicky Ford | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, business investment relief ensures that overseas funds can be invested in the...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)
My complaint was about the fact that people are being allowed to not pay tax on stuff they are do...; Nusrat Ghani | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)
I am concerned that we must not put inaccuracies on record. The HMRC figures published in August ...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)
I am very glad that those figures are there, but sadly, when we asked about them in September dur...; Anneliese Dodds | 629 cc389-390 (Link to this contribution)
I will get straight to the point. Members will not be surprised to hear that many of my concerns ...; Lord Harper | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady made a relevant point in the previous debate that I did not mention at the time. So...; Anneliese Dodds | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, but it is not the case that Governments are completely unable to do anything unilater...; James Cartlidge | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Lady seriously suggesting that, under a Labour Government, HMRC would never negotiate...; Anneliese Dodds | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)
I referred to secret sweetheart deals, of which the experience in this country has been negative....; Bambos Charalambous | 629 c391 (Link to this contribution)
One of the strange anomalies in our tax system over the years has been the framework constructed ...; Mel Stride | 629 c392 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 15 expands the scope of the business investment relief scheme because it supports economic...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c392 (Link to this contribution)
I would very much appreciate it if the Treasury would commit to publishing that information and d...; Mel Stride | 629 cc392-3 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, and I will come on to deal with the information that ...; Kirsty Blackman | 629 c393 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendment 13.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1...; George Howarth | 629 c399 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2—Review of changes to chargeability of tra...; Mel Stride | 629 cc399-400 (Link to this contribution)
As with my contributions earlier this afternoon, I will set out why the Government have included ...; Jonathan Edwards | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is making a powerful case as to why the devolution of corporation tax is a good thin...; Mel Stride | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but there is, of course, one key distinction bet...; Jonathan Edwards | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister makes a fair point about the land border, but large parts of Wales, including my par...; Mel Stride | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think it is within the scope of this particular clause to start getting too much into th...; Ian Jnr Paisley | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister accept that the introduction of this will allow for the rebalancing of the Nort...; Mel Stride | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes the very powerful point that this is not about brass-plating and shifting pr...; Ian Jnr Paisley | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister accept that those who espouse the peace process also want to see an economic di...; Mel Stride | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. This is about strengthening Northern Ireland’s economy, so...; Jonathan Reynolds | 629 cc401-2 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Financial Secretary for introducing this group. This is an important debate, not only...; Gregory Campbell | 629 c402 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman spoke a few moments ago about the importance of competitiveness throughout Eur...; Jonathan Reynolds | 629 c403 (Link to this contribution)
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I would not agree with his characterisation of the situati...; Ian Jnr Paisley | 629 c403 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman recognises that the one sector in which the proposals might be abused, the fin...; Jonathan Reynolds | 629 c403 (Link to this contribution)
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that only the financial services sector will s...; Jonathan Edwards | 629 c404 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that one of the biggest economic challenges that we face...; Jonathan Reynolds | 629 c404 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is not correct in that assessment. I certainly agree with him that regional di...; Sammy Wilson | 629 cc404-5 (Link to this contribution)
First, I welcome the proposal in the Finance Bill, which adds to the previous decision about devo...; Emma Little Pengelly | 629 c405 (Link to this contribution)
I want to raise one additional point. My hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) ha...; Martyn Day | 629 c406 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to present a petition relating to consumer rights. The petition stems from a problem that ...; Lindsay Hoyle | 629 c406 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly. I am struggling to hear what the hon. Gentlema...; Martyn Day | 629 cc406-411 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
As I was saying, the petition arises from a problem experienc...; Nicholas Dakin | 629 c411 (Link to this contribution)
I want to praise the work that the Bangladesh Welfare Association in North Lincolnshire does in t...
Legislation: Finance Bill 2017-19
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk

Finance Bill

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