Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Wednesday, 15 October 2014, in the House of Lords.

Wales Bill

Lords committee stage (second day, part one). Clauses 6, 7, 10-19 and Schedules 1 and 2, agreed to. Clauses 8 and 9, as amended, agreed to.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 756 cc198-252
Session: 2014-15
Department: Wales Office
Legislative stage: Committee stage
Procedure: New clauses
Chamber / Committee: House of Lords chamber
Related items: Wales Bill 2013-14 to 2014-15. Brought from the Commons.
Wednesday, 25 June 2014
Bills
House of Lords; Deposited Paper DEP2014-1432
Tuesday, 4 November 2014
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions: Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 756 cc198-9 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
19: After Clause 5, insert the following new Claus...; Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 756 cc199-201 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 20 and 61.
I begin by recalling some friends, who...; Baroness Gale | 756 cc201-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support Amendments 19 and 20. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord R...; Lord Elis-Thomas | 756 c203 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my colleague in the adjacent barony of Llandudno, along with my c...; Lord Tyler | 756 c203 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am delighted to add my signature to this group of amendments. Although I am very prou...; Lord Howarth of Newport | 756 c204 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, given the very disappointing levels of registration and turnout among young people to w...; Lord Lexden | 756 cc204-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, whom I have known personal...; Lord Richard | 756 c205 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may say a brief word. Following the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I should perhaps ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c205 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there must be, and clearly is, concern across the Chamber about the low engagement of y...; Lord Richard | 756 c205 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Baroness leaves that point, it is perfectly true that if you register, you do no...; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc206-7 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the noble Lord misunderstood what I was saying, which was that this is a very comple...; Lord Tyler | 756 c207 (Link to this contribution)
As my noble friend will know, I have been following the DVLA issue through the IER process for a ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc207-9 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend makes a good point. Of course, the Electoral Commission will be doing a report on...; Lord Elis-Thomas | 756 c209 (Link to this contribution)
In the spirit in which the Minister has spoken, and in the spirit already referred to by colleagu...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c209 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has anticipated my next sentence. In the light of the letter that has been receive...; Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 756 cc209-210 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to my noble friend for her full reply. I understand her reluctance, but I do n...; Lord Wigley | 756 c210 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Wigley
21: Clause 6, page 6, line 15, at end insert “and associated tax...; Lord Wigley | 756 cc210-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as well as Amendment 21, I will also speak to Amendments 22 and 23, all standing in the...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c211 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the tax credits that currently exist are closely associated with welfare payments. The ...; Lord Wigley | 756 c211 (Link to this contribution)
If the noble Baroness refers to the Silk report, she will see the arguments made there. The whole...; Lord Howarth of Newport | 756 c211 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, whatever the future structure of the United Kingdom, the union is surely to be based up...; Lord Newby | 756 c212 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 21 and 22 seek to include a reference to “associated tax credits” as part of...; Lord Wigley | 756 c212 (Link to this contribution)
Where powers to devise and implement new taxes in Wales are devolved to the National Assembly and...; Lord Newby | 756 cc212-3 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, they would, just as for existing taxes. The same principle would apply to any further taxes ...; Lord Wigley | 756 c213 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I listened with considerable interest to the responses I have had, and part of the clar...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c214 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Morgan of Ely
23A: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause—...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c214 (Link to this contribution)
In this amendment we are looking at future-proofing the legislation. We are very aware that there...; Lord Newby | 756 cc214-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 23A seeks to place two statutory duties on the Chancellor of the Exchequer wh...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c215 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord. It is important to understand that, at the moment, we do not know what th...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c216 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wonder if I may briefly intervene before the Minister moves her amendments. I have a ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c216 (Link to this contribution)
I understand the noble Lord’s point but I am intending to speak to my amendments and then give wa...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c216 (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate the Minister’s offer but it is a very different point altogether. I think that it wo...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c216 (Link to this contribution)
Following the points that the noble Lord has made, we will uncouple his amendment and have a sepa...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c216 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Randerson
24: Clause 8, page 9, line 5, leave out “a rate” and inse...; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc216-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am delighted to be introducing this series of amendments. Concerns were raised across...; Lord Wigley | 756 cc217-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very glad to have the opportunity to speak in this debate and to welcome the step ...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 cc218-222 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Labour Party understands the principle of the need for accountability and the need ...; Lord Howarth of Newport | 756 cc221-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it must be right as a matter of equity that Wales should have the same powers to alter ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc223-4 (Link to this contribution)
Noble Lords will have noticed that the pleasant agreement and consensus across the Chamber has di...; Lord Howarth of Newport | 756 c224 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister but does she recognise that, in the context of an unfair funding fo...; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc224-5 (Link to this contribution)
I recognise that there is an issue with the funding formula but I think it is also possible to ov...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c225 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Rowlands
31: Clause 8, page 10, line 20, leave out from beginning to en...; Lord Rowlands | 756 cc225-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, like many Members of this House, for a number of years I have had to read through Bills...; Lord Geddes | 756 c226 (Link to this contribution)
Having posed such a fascinating question, would the noble Lord like to move his amendment?; Lord Rowlands | 756 c226 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move.
5.45 pm; Lord Richard | 756 cc226-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support my noble friend on this. I am not a tax lawyer and I have given thanks for th...; Lord Wigley | 756 c227 (Link to this contribution)
I want to join briefly with colleagues who have raised these points. Over many years I have often...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 756 c227 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, for drawing my attention to these ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I understand that this new chapter is not the easiest read. In fact, I found it quite g...; Lord Anderson of Swansea | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Did he hold both positions in the same tax year?; Baroness Randerson | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
We are talking about the situation in the past. Keith Raffan moved from Wales to Scotland; he als...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry; I do not know Mr Raffan’s parliamentary history? Was Mr Raffan both a European Member...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
He was an MP and an MSP in the same tax year. I am pretty certain I am right, but the principle i...; Lord Richard | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Is it not absurd that we should be legislating in this way for one person? Is it not absolutely l...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c228 (Link to this contribution)
This has been through the whole scrutiny process in relation to Scotland. If noble Lords wish to ...; Lord Anderson of Swansea | 756 c229 (Link to this contribution)
What is the answer to the good point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that this is appropriat...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c229 (Link to this contribution)
That is a perfectly valid point, but we have it here in the Bill. I am also very conscious of the...; Lord Richard | 756 c229 (Link to this contribution)
With the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, residence is a very well known concept in tax la...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c229 (Link to this contribution)
These rules flesh out what the term “residence” means in tax rules in relation to Wales. I hope n...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c229 (Link to this contribution)
I find it difficult to believe that they are very easy to follow. I also do not believe that ther...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c230 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Randerson
32: Clause 8, page 12, line 1, leave out first “the” and ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c230 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Randerson
39: Clause 9, page 13, line 36, at end insert “for the pu...; Lord Wigley | 756 cc230-1 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Wigley
41: Clause 12, page 18, line 5, at end insert—
“(3A) The S...; Lord Wigley | 756 cc231-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas. I will a...; Lord Elis-Thomas | 756 c232 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment follows the amendments to Part 1 that were debated on Monday. The intent...; Lord Elystan-Morgan | 756 cc232-4 (Link to this contribution)
I endorse with very great enthusiasm everything that has been said by my noble friends Lords Wigl...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 cc234-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Labour Party in 1997 made a promise in that first referendum which established the ...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c235 (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. The Government have been consistently...; Lord Wigley | 756 c235 (Link to this contribution)
Where in the Bill does it say that those are the only circumstances in which the Secretary of Sta...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c235 (Link to this contribution)
The Bill does not give those reasons. The legal advice I was given related to tried-and-tested co...; Lord Elystan-Morgan | 756 c235 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords—; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc235-6 (Link to this contribution)
I will just answer the noble Lord’s intervention and then I will certainly give way.
The no...; Lord Elystan-Morgan | 756 c236 (Link to this contribution)
With great respect, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Baroness that that is the only circumst...; Baroness Randerson | 756 c236 (Link to this contribution)
That would depend on the circumstances, would it not? Someone may wish to test such a matter befo...; Lord Elis-Thomas | 756 c236 (Link to this contribution)
I will not pursue this matter, but I tell the Minister that if she has been given legal advice th...; Baroness Randerson | 756 cc236-7 (Link to this contribution)
That is exactly the view of the Government. The Assembly, as I have just said, is in the driving ...; Lord Wigley | 756 c237 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to every noble Lord who has taken part in this debate and to the Minister...; Lord Elis-Thomas | 756 c237 (Link to this contribution)
More.; Lord Wigley | 756 c237 (Link to this contribution)
More, my noble friend says. In many ways, he is right: they are in Wales dealing with the circums...; Lord Rowlands | 756 cc238-240 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there is a consensus that both stamp duty and landfill tax should be devolved. I have n...; Lord Anderson of Swansea | 756 c240 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend as usual asks some very probing and cogent questions. On the face of it, these tr...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 cc240-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Labour supports the move to devolve stamp duty land tax to Wales as it would be an obvi...; Lord Newby | 756 c241 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, for raising these questions, which are ...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c241 (Link to this contribution)
Where is the power? Is it in the Bill?; Lord Newby | 756 cc241-3 (Link to this contribution)
It is in the Bill. I will correct myself if I am wrong but I am sure that this flows from the poi...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c242 (Link to this contribution)
If you just look at stamp duty in London, the estimate is that £1.3 billion is collected there. T...; Lord Newby | 756 c242 (Link to this contribution)
We like to do it in a positive spirit. The truth is that stamp duty land tax is a very small prop...; Lord Rowlands | 756 c242 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but he has mentioned Scotland. Presumably the discussi...; Lord Newby | 756 c242 (Link to this contribution)
There is a Joint Exchequer Committee in Scotland, as there is in Wales. It will be for the Welsh ...; Lord Wigley | 756 c244 (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Wigley
49: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause—
“Res...; Lord Wigley | 756 c244 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 50 and 51, which each seek to transfer financial powers...; Lord Rowe-Beddoe | 756 cc244-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wish to speak to my Amendment 51A, which relates to air passenger duty devolution. I ...; Lord Anderson of Swansea | 756 c245 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have two brief comments—one on the varying of fuel duty and the other on air passenge...; Lord Rowe-Beddoe | 756 c245 (Link to this contribution)
It is not my idea of a catchment area but the European Commission’s, and the figure of 100 kilome...; Lord Anderson of Swansea | 756 c245 (Link to this contribution)
That may be the definition of the European Commission but I speak on a matter of reality and look...; Lord Rowe-Beddoe | 756 c245 (Link to this contribution)
With respect, the journey from Swansea to Bristol is considerably longer than the journey from Sw...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 756 c245 (Link to this contribution)
If I may interrupt, the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, does not want to do something to the detrim...; Lord Newby | 756 c247 (Link to this contribution)
Noble Lords are, as ever, extremely eloquently making a case for preferential treatment for Wales...; Lord Rowe-Beddoe | 756 c247 (Link to this contribution)
In my definition of a regional airport, I made it very clear that it had between 1 million and 3 ...; Lord Newby | 756 cc247-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sure that the Welsh Assembly, which I believe—including the Labour element of it—i...; Lord Wigley | 756 cc248-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. On the amendment proposed ...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 756 c249 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord not agree that, if the Welsh Labour Government are not prepared to use the to...; Lord Wigley | 756 c249 (Link to this contribution)
That is true of all the powers, and we have to look to the Assembly to take a responsible attitud...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 756 cc249-250 (Link to this contribution)
Surely the distance between Bristol and Cardiff and the services provided from Bristol are such t...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c250 (Link to this contribution)
It is worth putting on record the Labour position on some of these points. First, in relation to ...; Lord Elis-Thomas | 756 c250 (Link to this contribution)
I spoke on this matter in this House during a debate in June. Let me make it clear that my suppor...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c251 (Link to this contribution)
That is great to hear, but there are some aspects of Salmond’s policy commitments that I think wo...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 756 c251 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Baroness agree that all the things we have been discussing tonight are levers—thin...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c251 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that, but I also think that we should be aware of the dangers of a race to the botto...; Lord Wigley | 756 c251 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. She has warned about a race to the bottom as ...; Baroness Morgan of Ely | 756 c251 (Link to this contribution)
Not at all. Let me be clear: we in the Labour Party are not encouraging this; we do not want it t...; Lord Newby | 756 c251 (Link to this contribution)
I shall take the amendments in turn. Amendments 49 and 51A seek to include explicit provision in ...; Lord Rowe-Beddoe | 756 c252 (Link to this contribution)
Let me just point out that Cardiff—perhaps noble Lords do not know—has lost more than 1 million p...; Lord Newby | 756 c252 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has just made my point that they are part of a single market for passengers in sou...
Subjects: National Assembly for Wales
Legislation: Wales Bill 2013-14 to 2014-15
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Wales Bill

Secondary information

Librarians' tools