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Session X
2013-14

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Moved by

Lord Deben

93R: After Clause 142, insert the following new Clause—

“Use of amplified noise equipment in vicinity of the Palace of Westminster

(1) The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 142 there is inserted—

“142A Other controlled areas in vicinity of the Palace of Westminster

(1)...

Member
Lord Deben (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
20 January 2014
Reference
751 cc511-3
House
House of Lords

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether plans have been developed by police forces in the south of England to recruit special investigations managers to prepare court cases against protestors at sites planned for shale gas fracking investigations.[HL4284]

Asked by
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)
Type
Written questions
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
HL4284; 750 c314WA
House
House of Lords

My Lords, we have engaged constructively with lawyers over a period of many months and we continue to do so. However, the fact remains that we have one of the most expensive

legal aid systems in the world and in the current economic climate this is not sustainable for taxpayers, who fund it. We have to find efficiencies to ensure that legal aid is sustained and available for those most in need of a lawyer.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1506
House
House of Lords

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the protests by lawyers on 6 January concerning further cuts to legal aid.

Asked by
Lord Clinton-Davis (Labour)
Oral questions - Lead
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 cc1506-9
House
House of Lords

I thank the Minister for that uninformative Answer. Does he recognise that the Justice Alliance, representing a large number of people and organisations and many senior judges, has expressed its concern about these proposals? Is it not the case that these cuts will lead to more, not less, expenditure, that cases will be bound to last much longer when people are unrepresented, that there will be a reduction in standards and that there will be more miscarriages of justice and an inevitable increase in guilty pleas? Is not the Minister concerned about all those things, as expressed by reputable organisations?

Asked by
Lord Clinton-Davis (Labour)
Oral questions - 1st Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

My Lords, the Government have undertaken to listen, consult and work with the profession, and we continue to do so. However, in the current economic climate and indeed with the crisis that we inherited, we needed to look across the board to ensure that efficiencies could be had. Even with the efficiencies that we will be making from this series of cuts, £1.5 billion will continue to be spent on legal aid—a figure that is among the highest in the world.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that the figures that the Government have been giving for the incomes of members of the criminal Bar refer to turnover before VAT, tax and chambers expenses are taken off, and that therefore these figures are utterly misleading?

Asked by
Baroness Butler-Sloss (Crossbench)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

My Lords, the Government and indeed my honourable friend Shailesh Vara, who is the legal aid Minister, have made it quite clear that when we have referred to these figures—for example, the average figure of £84,000—they have related to fee income. The Government recognise that costs are to be taken from that fee income, and we have talked about that.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

My Lords, one feature of the stand-off is that the representatives of the criminal Bar and the Government are quoting very different figures for earnings—not just the net and gross earnings. Would it not be helpful as a basis for negotiation to try to agree with the representatives of the criminal Bar a common basis for the actual earnings?

Asked by
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Labour)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

I repeat my assurance to noble Lords that the Government continue to consult. Indeed, we have just had close to 2,000 responses to the latest consultation on legal aid. As part of those discussions, I am sure that we will take on board the noble Lord’s comment, which seems a very sensible suggestion.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

My Lords, does the Minister accept that over the past few years when there have been discussions concerning cuts in legal aid on a broad basis, the Government have accepted

that there are massive downstream costs which greatly erode what otherwise might seem to be an attractive saving? Can the Minister tell the House what surveys have been made of such downstream costs and what the results of those surveys are, and, in the event that such surveys were not made, how any Government could have been so monumentally imprudent as to jump into the dark in such a situation?

Asked by
Lord Elystan-Morgan (Crossbench)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1507
House
House of Lords

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. This is not a jump into the dark; it is a recognition of the current situation that the Government face across the board and across every department. We are seeking to focus legal aid spending on those who most need it. Spending on legal aid in the UK amounts to about £39 per head. I reiterate that one should look at some of the figures, even making international comparisons. Compared with like-for-like systems—for example, New Zealand at £18, Canada at £10 and Ireland, next door to us, at £20 per head—our legal system will, after the efficiencies are made, still remain one of the best in the world.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

My Lords, the Minister has just spoken of efficiencies. How is it efficient to impair the quality of justice?

Asked by
Lord Howarth of Newport (Labour)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

Again, I disagree with the noble Lord. Looking around the world, and speaking for the Benches behind me, I believe that our justice system is one of the best in the world and will continue to be so, despite the efficiencies being made. I do not agree with the picture that the noble Lord paints.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that solicitors are also essential to criminal advocacy and that there are growing deserts in this country, which will be much accelerated by the cuts, where people will not be able to find solicitors for miles? What is he going to do about that?

Asked by
Lord Phillips of Sudbury (Liberal Democrat)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

Having just returned from Dubai, I can perhaps relate physically to the picture of a desert, but not in the sense of the legal aid environment. Of course my noble friend is correct to say that solicitors play and will continue to play a crucial and important part, and the Legal Aid Agency will ensure that representation for those who need it will be available.

Answered by
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

My Lords, while supporting the Government—

Member
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
Type
Oral question time interventions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

My Lords—

Member
Lord Beecham (Labour)
Type
Oral question time interventions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

No.

Type
Oral question time interventions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1508
House
House of Lords

I give way to the noble Lord.

Member
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
Type
Oral question time interventions
Date
8 January 2014
Reference
750 c1509
House
House of Lords