My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly. [The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.] Clause 93 [Legislative competence]:

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly. [The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.] Clause 93 [Legislative competence]:

I am grateful to the Minister, and I recognise the profound intellectual perspicacity of the shadow Attorney-General in another place. Nobody admires him more than I do. However, I shall ask the Minister again the question I posed at the outset: how does this change the approach that the courts normally take? Normally, they start...

I am grateful to the Minister, and I recognise the profound intellectual perspicacity of the shadow Attorney-General in another place. Nobody admires him more than I do. However, I shall ask the Minister again the question I posed at the outset: how does this change the approach that the courts normally take? Normally, they start...

I have to repeat a point I just made: if this provision did not exist, the Assembly could be severely hampered in its ability to enact legislation. While it is possible that the courts would develop a similar interpretive tool themselves, I said that the absence of this provision would leave unwelcome room...

I have to repeat a point I just made: if this provision did not exist, the Assembly could be severely hampered in its ability to enact legislation. While it is possible that the courts would develop a similar interpretive tool themselves, I said that the absence of this provision would leave unwelcome room...

moved Amendment No. 60A:"Page 51, line 21, leave out subsection (7)." The noble Lord said: I can deal with this amendment very briefly. It expunges Clause 93(7) from the face of the Bill. The subsection reads as follows:"““For the purposes of this section the question whether a provision of an Assembly Measure relates to one or...

moved Amendment No. 60A:"Page 51, line 21, leave out subsection (7)." The noble Lord said: I can deal with this amendment very briefly. It expunges Clause 93(7) from the face of the Bill. The subsection reads as follows:"““For the purposes of this section the question whether a provision of an Assembly Measure relates to one or...

As we have heard, Amendment No. 60A would remove Clause 93(7), which is included to help interpret whether a particular provision in an Assembly measure is within the Assembly’s legislative competence. There is nothing unusual about it, either; it is modelled on a similar provision in the Scotland Act 1998. If a question...

As we have heard, Amendment No. 60A would remove Clause 93(7), which is included to help interpret whether a particular provision in an Assembly measure is within the Assembly’s legislative competence. There is nothing unusual about it, either; it is modelled on a similar provision in the Scotland Act 1998. If a question...

I have considerable sympathy with the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, because I thought that the original Scotland Act contained some serious errors. Trying to list what were going to be the powers of the Scottish assembly was so confusing that those of us who are lawyers thoroughly enjoyed ourselves working...

I have considerable sympathy with the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, because I thought that the original Scotland Act contained some serious errors. Trying to list what were going to be the powers of the Scottish assembly was so confusing that those of us who are lawyers thoroughly enjoyed ourselves working...

I thank the Minister for the measured and courteous way in which he responded to my amendment. I also thank all noble Lords who have spoken for their support. I refer in particular to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, whose experience in Parliament, in the courts and as Lord Advocate is...

I thank the Minister for the measured and courteous way in which he responded to my amendment. I also thank all noble Lords who have spoken for their support. I refer in particular to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, whose experience in Parliament, in the courts and as Lord Advocate is...

If the people of Wales wish to proceed at a different speed towards greater devolution than the Government of the day wish, how would they be able to acquire a referendum? Would the Government be happy to receive a petition from the people of Wales, presented to the House of...

If the people of Wales wish to proceed at a different speed towards greater devolution than the Government of the day wish, how would they be able to acquire a referendum? Would the Government be happy to receive a petition from the people of Wales, presented to the House of...

moved Amendment No. 61A:"Page 51, line 29, leave out paragraph (b)." The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 61A, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 61B. Amendment No. 61A refers to Clause 94(1)(b) and Amendment No. 61B refers to Clause 94(2). These amendments are essentially probing amendments. In order to put them into context, I need to summarise what Part 3—I hesitate...

moved Amendment No. 61A:"Page 51, line 29, leave out paragraph (b)." The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 61A, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 61B. Amendment No. 61A refers to Clause 94(1)(b) and Amendment No. 61B refers to Clause 94(2). These amendments are essentially probing amendments. In order to put them into context, I need to summarise what Part 3—I hesitate...

For once, I find myself in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, said. All the subsection does is to set out the golden rule of law as far as statutory interpretation is concerned. If the ordinary grammatical meaning of the words is unambiguous, that is the interpretation. If there is...

For once, I find myself in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, said. All the subsection does is to set out the golden rule of law as far as statutory interpretation is concerned. If the ordinary grammatical meaning of the words is unambiguous, that is the interpretation. If there is...

I am more than grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. It reinforces the importance of the Minister putting on paper the thoughts that he has sought to unpack in the Chamber this afternoon. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 93 agreed to. Schedule 5 [Assembly Measures]: [Amendment...

I am more than grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. It reinforces the importance of the Minister putting on paper the thoughts that he has sought to unpack in the Chamber this afternoon. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 93 agreed to. Schedule 5 [Assembly Measures]: [Amendment...

Perhaps I may answer that. Our party is for devolution in England, but I am quite happy for the English to stay as they are because of the signal advantages that devolution brings to Wales and to Scotland over the English regions. If the English do not want devolution, I am sorry for...

Perhaps I may answer that. Our party is for devolution in England, but I am quite happy for the English to stay as they are because of the signal advantages that devolution brings to Wales and to Scotland over the English regions. If the English do not want devolution, I am sorry for...

: So the answer is that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, would approve of an English parliament?

: So the answer is that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, would approve of an English parliament?

Yes.

Yes.

The noble Lord has, as he always does, put forward a cogent case for his amendment. We find ourselves unable to support it, for one very simple reason: we are opposed to the whole of Part 3. It would plainly contradict that approach if we were to accept an amendment to Schedule 5,...

The noble Lord has, as he always does, put forward a cogent case for his amendment. We find ourselves unable to support it, for one very simple reason: we are opposed to the whole of Part 3. It would plainly contradict that approach if we were to accept an amendment to Schedule 5,...

moved Amendment No. 60:"Page 51, line 2, leave out from ““competence”” to end of line 24 and insert ““unless it relates to one or more of the reserved matters specified in Schedule (Reserved matters)””" The noble Lord said: The founding fathers of the United States, when they put together the American federal constitution in the latter...

moved Amendment No. 60:"Page 51, line 2, leave out from ““competence”” to end of line 24 and insert ““unless it relates to one or more of the reserved matters specified in Schedule (Reserved matters)””" The noble Lord said: The founding fathers of the United States, when they put together the American federal constitution in the latter...

Does it follow from the logic of the noble Lord’s argument that he would be a supporter of an English parliament? Perhaps I can leave him to reflect on that.

Does it follow from the logic of the noble Lord’s argument that he would be a supporter of an English parliament? Perhaps I can leave him to reflect on that.

As we have heard, the amendments in this group would change how the Bill defines the matters on which the Assembly could legislate, at first by Assembly measure and then, after a referendum, by Assembly Act. One effect of Amendments Nos. 60 and 61, applying as they do to Part 3, would be...

As we have heard, the amendments in this group would change how the Bill defines the matters on which the Assembly could legislate, at first by Assembly measure and then, after a referendum, by Assembly Act. One effect of Amendments Nos. 60 and 61, applying as they do to Part 3, would be...

I seek to add to the impeccable logic of my noble friend. I am sure that he will address the points on the legal system which the Minister has made. However, Amendment No. 61 would replace Schedule 5 with a new schedule, which would specify reserved matters and those matters which are not reserved....

I seek to add to the impeccable logic of my noble friend. I am sure that he will address the points on the legal system which the Minister has made. However, Amendment No. 61 would replace Schedule 5 with a new schedule, which would specify reserved matters and those matters which are not reserved....