If it is good enough for the Welsh people to have devolution and power over their own decisions, and for Scottish people to have Members of the Scottish Parliament to make decisions on their behalf, why is it not good enough for people who live in England?

If it is good enough for the Welsh people to have devolution and power over their own decisions, and for Scottish people to have Members of the Scottish Parliament to make decisions on their behalf, why is it not good enough for people who live in England?

I make no apologies for my party being in government—that is a very good thing. The fact that we moved to devolution at all was because of a consensus that was the direct polar opposite of 18 years of Conservative colonial rule in Wales. The people of Wales rebelled and...

I make no apologies for my party being in government—that is a very good thing. The fact that we moved to devolution at all was because of a consensus that was the direct polar opposite of 18 years of Conservative colonial rule in Wales. The people of Wales rebelled and...

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that consensus means agreeing on all the things that one can agree on, not everyone else going along with the Labour party just because it happens to be in government?

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that consensus means agreeing on all the things that one can agree on, not everyone else going along with the Labour party just because it happens to be in government?

Enhanced consultation is set out clearly in the Bill, and there are key words such as ““sustaining”” and ““promoting”” the interests of various sectors, but that is absent when it comes to the business community. The words are indicative of the approach. Clause 75 says:"““Welsh Ministers must carry out consultation...

Enhanced consultation is set out clearly in the Bill, and there are key words such as ““sustaining”” and ““promoting”” the interests of various sectors, but that is absent when it comes to the business community. The words are indicative of the approach. Clause 75 says:"““Welsh Ministers must carry out consultation...

: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is sincere in wanting to improve consultation between the Welsh Assembly and various bodies in Wales, but does he agree that one consequence of separating the Executive from the legislature is that representatives on the partnerships will be representatives of the Welsh...

: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is sincere in wanting to improve consultation between the Welsh Assembly and various bodies in Wales, but does he agree that one consequence of separating the Executive from the legislature is that representatives on the partnerships will be representatives of the Welsh...

I point out to the hon. Gentleman that I do not suffer any great disadvantage under the present system, but there are two equal but slightly different types of Assembly Member. A regional Assembly Member masquerading as local here and local there as he chooses is not the rough and...

I point out to the hon. Gentleman that I do not suffer any great disadvantage under the present system, but there are two equal but slightly different types of Assembly Member. A regional Assembly Member masquerading as local here and local there as he chooses is not the rough and...

: I ask the hon. Gentleman the question that I asked the Secretary of State earlier: how would the Bill remedy what seems to concern the hon. Gentleman and other Members? It seems to me to be part of the rough and tumble of politics—perhaps he does not like that.

: I ask the hon. Gentleman the question that I asked the Secretary of State earlier: how would the Bill remedy what seems to concern the hon. Gentleman and other Members? It seems to me to be part of the rough and tumble of politics—perhaps he does not like that.

I return to the point, and I think that the Bill envisages the situation, that Assembly Members should be equal but different. A local constituency first-past-the-post Assembly Member has a specific constituency interest and a right to describe themselves as local and to campaign on issues specific to that constituency....

I return to the point, and I think that the Bill envisages the situation, that Assembly Members should be equal but different. A local constituency first-past-the-post Assembly Member has a specific constituency interest and a right to describe themselves as local and to campaign on issues specific to that constituency....

I want to take up the hon. Gentleman on his point, because he clearly takes the view that there should be two categories of Assembly Member. Although there may be two routes into the Assembly, it is dangerous to say that members of a corporate body have a different status...

I want to take up the hon. Gentleman on his point, because he clearly takes the view that there should be two categories of Assembly Member. Although there may be two routes into the Assembly, it is dangerous to say that members of a corporate body have a different status...

So it was. That suggests that the Committee stage will be even more difficult. We can already see the opposition to providing for a stronger Assembly with enhanced legislative powers. I can understand the logic of the arguments advanced by Conservative Front Benchers, but there will be ample time in...

So it was. That suggests that the Committee stage will be even more difficult. We can already see the opposition to providing for a stronger Assembly with enhanced legislative powers. I can understand the logic of the arguments advanced by Conservative Front Benchers, but there will be ample time in...

It was two out of three.

It was two out of three.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman and have no doubt that the matter will be subject to considerable debate in Committee. Many believe that there must be a means of reviewing the decision. If the Bill is left as it stands, it will be an affront to the National Assembly....

I agree with the hon. Gentleman and have no doubt that the matter will be subject to considerable debate in Committee. Many believe that there must be a means of reviewing the decision. If the Bill is left as it stands, it will be an affront to the National Assembly....

I am not seeking to kick the hon. Gentleman, and we must return to that important matter in Committee. He has rightly raised the question whether the Secretary of State should have the power to veto the procedure as opposed to Parliament.

I am not seeking to kick the hon. Gentleman, and we must return to that important matter in Committee. He has rightly raised the question whether the Secretary of State should have the power to veto the procedure as opposed to Parliament.

The hon. Gentleman is about to kick me again.

The hon. Gentleman is about to kick me again.

I have no doubt that the Salisbury convention will be prayed in aid in the inevitable tussle with the other place. If the hon. Gentleman is asking me whether I approve of the gerrymandering technique, my answer is no because I would have no truck with it. I hope that...

I have no doubt that the Salisbury convention will be prayed in aid in the inevitable tussle with the other place. If the hon. Gentleman is asking me whether I approve of the gerrymandering technique, my answer is no because I would have no truck with it. I hope that...

Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the Salisbury convention should apply to measures in the Government’s manifesto in Wales and the UK in relation to this Bill?

Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the Salisbury convention should apply to measures in the Government’s manifesto in Wales and the UK in relation to this Bill?

I had hoped that the Minister would respond, but I have got a Whip—

I had hoped that the Minister would respond, but I have got a Whip—

The core point would be whether the Secretary of State acted reasonably in the circumstances. It is clear that the supreme court should not examine a policy area, and I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the danger. I would have preferred the Bill to contain a more streamlined procedure...

The core point would be whether the Secretary of State acted reasonably in the circumstances. It is clear that the supreme court should not examine a policy area, and I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the danger. I would have preferred the Bill to contain a more streamlined procedure...

I am pleased to rise in support of the Bill and in opposition to the reasoned amendment tabled by Conservative Front Benchers. I begin by expressing my condolences on the deaths of Lord Merlyn-Rees and Lord Stratford. Their contribution to political life was inestimable and they will be greatly missed....

I am pleased to rise in support of the Bill and in opposition to the reasoned amendment tabled by Conservative Front Benchers. I begin by expressing my condolences on the deaths of Lord Merlyn-Rees and Lord Stratford. Their contribution to political life was inestimable and they will be greatly missed....

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point to which the Under-Secretary of State for Wales will respond in due course. I am not the Secretary of State. The Bill allows for a final stage of devolution for Wales whereby the Assembly would become a fully functioning Parliament with primary legislative...

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point to which the Under-Secretary of State for Wales will respond in due course. I am not the Secretary of State. The Bill allows for a final stage of devolution for Wales whereby the Assembly would become a fully functioning Parliament with primary legislative...