I still contend that that is an extrapolation. We are talking about a graduated response, but there is an assumption that somehow no one will respond positively and that everyone will carry on being a serial transgressor. Of course I cannot predict this, but we are not embarking on a...

I still contend that that is an extrapolation. We are talking about a graduated response, but there is an assumption that somehow no one will respond positively and that everyone will carry on being a serial transgressor. Of course I cannot predict this, but we are not embarking on a...

My Lords, to come back to the question of figures, I really do not think the Government can get away with starting this great moral panic about the state of our creative industries and then, when relevant figures are quoted, say that there is no basis for them. There either...

My Lords, to come back to the question of figures, I really do not think the Government can get away with starting this great moral panic about the state of our creative industries and then, when relevant figures are quoted, say that there is no basis for them. There either...

I have acknowledged the importance of this matter but we have not started a moral panic. We have not used what I once described in a previous Bill as a piece of Lucasian hyperbole. Neither do I accept the disparaging and unfortunate remark of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, when...

I have acknowledged the importance of this matter but we have not started a moral panic. We have not used what I once described in a previous Bill as a piece of Lucasian hyperbole. Neither do I accept the disparaging and unfortunate remark of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, when...

My Lords, I understand the important point that the noble Lord makes. The code is important because it introduces flexibility in way that the primary legislation cannot. That is why the primary legislation is bound to be somewhat starker and less sophisticated than the code can be, and addresses itself...

My Lords, I understand the important point that the noble Lord makes. The code is important because it introduces flexibility in way that the primary legislation cannot. That is why the primary legislation is bound to be somewhat starker and less sophisticated than the code can be, and addresses itself...

My Lords, the Minister hangs on to the principle that the subscriber must be the one with whom the buck stops. I can see the practicality of that; the question is then how to make that practically liveable-with. Coming back to what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has said, we...

My Lords, the Minister hangs on to the principle that the subscriber must be the one with whom the buck stops. I can see the practicality of that; the question is then how to make that practically liveable-with. Coming back to what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has said, we...

My Lords, the Minister talked about darker purposes. No one quarrels with the concept of the real transgressors, but the whole discussion today has been about trying to protect those who are innocent or unknowing about what is happening and the use that is being made of their communal wi-fi...

My Lords, the Minister talked about darker purposes. No one quarrels with the concept of the real transgressors, but the whole discussion today has been about trying to protect those who are innocent or unknowing about what is happening and the use that is being made of their communal wi-fi...

That is always a defence in terms of any ongoing sanction. However, they do not need a defence to the first letter because it merely indicates that the practice should cease. That process is reasonable enough, is it not?

That is always a defence in terms of any ongoing sanction. However, they do not need a defence to the first letter because it merely indicates that the practice should cease. That process is reasonable enough, is it not?

Does the Minister admit that we should not attach a liability to someone who has done all that could be reasonably be expected of them to behave correctly?

Does the Minister admit that we should not attach a liability to someone who has done all that could be reasonably be expected of them to behave correctly?

Let me be clear about one aspect which has clouded this debate and ought not be introduced again because we have been round the course before. We are not talking about heavy sanctions at this stage but about letters which will be sent out where activity has gone on, perhaps...

Let me be clear about one aspect which has clouded this debate and ought not be introduced again because we have been round the course before. We are not talking about heavy sanctions at this stage but about letters which will be sent out where activity has gone on, perhaps...

So I am not the subscriber on the parliamentary network, Parliament is; or I am the subscriber although the contract is not with me. Which is it?

So I am not the subscriber on the parliamentary network, Parliament is; or I am the subscriber although the contract is not with me. Which is it?

Can the noble Lord enlighten me, and indeed I suspect everybody in the technical world, as to how it is possible to identify that your network has been hijacked?

Can the noble Lord enlighten me, and indeed I suspect everybody in the technical world, as to how it is possible to identify that your network has been hijacked?

That is right. It is a defence if the subscriber can identify that the connection has been hijacked in circumstances where they could in no conceivable way be held responsible.

That is right. It is a defence if the subscriber can identify that the connection has been hijacked in circumstances where they could in no conceivable way be held responsible.

My noble friend is being a little disingenuous. We are not talking about simply who receives the letter; the question of the subscriber runs through all the gradations of action. The only person against whom action can be taken under these provisions is the subscriber. The question of the noble...

My noble friend is being a little disingenuous. We are not talking about simply who receives the letter; the question of the subscriber runs through all the gradations of action. The only person against whom action can be taken under these provisions is the subscriber. The question of the noble...

At this stage, how has the Minister arrived at the assessment that we are not facing half a million disconnections? The noble Earl gave a figure of 7 million people doing this, and we might reasonably assume that, despite this legislation, a number will go on doing this. What assessment...

At this stage, how has the Minister arrived at the assessment that we are not facing half a million disconnections? The noble Earl gave a figure of 7 million people doing this, and we might reasonably assume that, despite this legislation, a number will go on doing this. What assessment...

I am dismissing the figures not lightly but seriously, because I do not think that they are based on any validated or credible evidence.

I am dismissing the figures not lightly but seriously, because I do not think that they are based on any validated or credible evidence.

There can be no evidence because we are going into unknown territory, but the British Phonographic Industry has told me that the figure is 6.5 million, and the Creative Coalition Campaign gave me the figure of 7 million that I just gave the Committee. Those are presumably well researched figures....

There can be no evidence because we are going into unknown territory, but the British Phonographic Industry has told me that the figure is 6.5 million, and the Creative Coalition Campaign gave me the figure of 7 million that I just gave the Committee. Those are presumably well researched figures....

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I agree with everything he said about what is necessary. Within this framework, of course I am identifying that the subscriber is responsible. If it reached the stage that the subscriber had got past the early stage and the issue was of...

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I agree with everything he said about what is necessary. Within this framework, of course I am identifying that the subscriber is responsible. If it reached the stage that the subscriber had got past the early stage and the issue was of...

It may assist the noble Lord to know that if you download from home, you are going straight out on to the internet rather than the parliamentary system, even if you are also getting e-mails over the virtual private network, so what you are downloading at that point cannot be...

It may assist the noble Lord to know that if you download from home, you are going straight out on to the internet rather than the parliamentary system, even if you are also getting e-mails over the virtual private network, so what you are downloading at that point cannot be...

52: Clause 4, page 6, line 19, at end insert— "( ) sets out the value of the infringement on the basis described in the initial obligations;"

52: Clause 4, page 6, line 19, at end insert— "( ) sets out the value of the infringement on the basis described in the initial obligations;"

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. I thank all noble Lords who have drawn the Minister out to get at least the statement he made in the last 30 seconds. The clause is remarkably sloppily drafted; noble Lords are right that we do not know what is meant...

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. I thank all noble Lords who have drawn the Minister out to get at least the statement he made in the last 30 seconds. The clause is remarkably sloppily drafted; noble Lords are right that we do not know what is meant...