My Lords, I am very sorry that I missed the early part of that debate because I feel it might impact on some of the things I say. However, when I read the government amendments, I could not see anything in them that made the amendments unnecessary, so I will...

My Lords, I am very sorry that I missed the early part of that debate because I feel it might impact on some of the things I say. However, when I read the government amendments, I could not see anything in them that made the amendments unnecessary, so I will...

My Lords, I support Amendments 3, 8 and 13 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to which I have added my name. I will not repeat too much all her comments on our learning from the Online Safety Act that small does not mean low risk. However,...

My Lords, I support Amendments 3, 8 and 13 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to which I have added my name. I will not repeat too much all her comments on our learning from the Online Safety Act that small does not mean low risk. However,...

My Lords, these amendments confront us immediately with some of the Bill’s most fundamental potential structural weaknesses—the danger of a static, arbitrary and pre-digital scope. The Government appear to have conceded this point already by tabling those infamous 65 high-risk vendor amendments in the previous group. Let us look first...

My Lords, these amendments confront us immediately with some of the Bill’s most fundamental potential structural weaknesses—the danger of a static, arbitrary and pre-digital scope. The Government appear to have conceded this point already by tabling those infamous 65 high-risk vendor amendments in the previous group. Let us look first...

I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and other noble Lords for trying to make sense of what we all agree is a very difficult area. We are trying to come to a definition of high-risk areas. As we have heard in the examples today, you cannot...

I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and other noble Lords for trying to make sense of what we all agree is a very difficult area. We are trying to come to a definition of high-risk areas. As we have heard in the examples today, you cannot...

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her introduction and my noble friend Lady Harding for setting out the motivation for ensuring that we have the right balance of risk and regulation here. The amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, seek to allow for the designation of systemically...

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her introduction and my noble friend Lady Harding for setting out the motivation for ensuring that we have the right balance of risk and regulation here. The amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, seek to allow for the designation of systemically...

I am very grateful to the Minister for suggesting that there will be some consideration of the gap, as she put it, and I look forward to that. I want to raise one thing, which is that I was very struck by her reference to a small number of companies...

I am very grateful to the Minister for suggesting that there will be some consideration of the gap, as she put it, and I look forward to that. I want to raise one thing, which is that I was very struck by her reference to a small number of companies...

The purpose of the Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and information Systems) Bill is to further enhance the scope and powers we have to protect essential services connected through network and information services. The market as it exists today is as I described. What is within the scope is not...

The purpose of the Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and information Systems) Bill is to further enhance the scope and powers we have to protect essential services connected through network and information services. The market as it exists today is as I described. What is within the scope is not...

Moved by

Baroness Lloyd of Effra

4: Clause 6, page 4, line 31, after “controller” insert “—

(a) which carries on activities for system-balancing purposes (whether or not it also carries on other activities), and”

Member’s explanatory statement

This amendment would ensure that the threshold requirement relating to the essential service of load control, inserted...

Moved by

Baroness Lloyd of Effra

4: Clause 6, page 4, line 31, after “controller” insert “—

(a) which carries on activities for system-balancing purposes (whether or not it also carries on other activities), and”

Member’s explanatory statement

This amendment would ensure that the threshold requirement relating to the essential service of load control, inserted...

Moved by

Baroness Kidron

6: Clause 7, page 6, line 31, after “engine” insert “, an AI product or service”

Member’s explanatory statement

This amendment probes whether the definition of “relevant digital service” being inserted into the NIS Regulations by this bill includes generative-AI models, including but not limited to AI agents and large...

Moved by

Baroness Kidron

6: Clause 7, page 6, line 31, after “engine” insert “, an AI product or service”

Member’s explanatory statement

This amendment probes whether the definition of “relevant digital service” being inserted into the NIS Regulations by this bill includes generative-AI models, including but not limited to AI agents and large...

My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment 75 in my name; I thank those noble Lords who have added their names in support. I was glad to add my name to Amendments 12, 85 and 86 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko,...

My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment 75 in my name; I thank those noble Lords who have added their names in support. I was glad to add my name to Amendments 12, 85 and 86 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko,...

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 12, 85 and 86 in my name, and in support of Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to which I have also added my name.

At Second Reading, several noble Lords spoke about the AI-shaped hole in the Bill....

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 12, 85 and 86 in my name, and in support of Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to which I have also added my name.

At Second Reading, several noble Lords spoke about the AI-shaped hole in the Bill....

My Lords, I support Amendment 75 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and Amendment 84 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, both of which I have added my name to, but I also support all the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, that...

My Lords, I support Amendment 75 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and Amendment 84 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, both of which I have added my name to, but I also support all the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, that...

My Lords, it is a pleasure to support all the amendments in this group. In one set of amendments in Committee, we have more on AI than in not just the cyber Bill but across most government legislation—past, present and, tragically, probably largely future.

As has already been mentioned and was...

My Lords, it is a pleasure to support all the amendments in this group. In one set of amendments in Committee, we have more on AI than in not just the cyber Bill but across most government legislation—past, present and, tragically, probably largely future.

As has already been mentioned and was...

My Lords, I will briefly speak to the amendments from the point of view of anti-terrorism and national security. I do so with trepidation, having listened to the wonderful speeches that have been made thus far.

I find it difficult to understand why there is an unwillingness to give the clarity...

My Lords, I will briefly speak to the amendments from the point of view of anti-terrorism and national security. I do so with trepidation, having listened to the wonderful speeches that have been made thus far.

I find it difficult to understand why there is an unwillingness to give the clarity...

My Lords, I will briefly add my support to the amendments in this group, particularly the “red lines” amendment and the “last resort” amendment. Nobody who has read the report on the Hugging Face incident can fail to think that we need legislation now to deal with these kinds of...

My Lords, I will briefly add my support to the amendments in this group, particularly the “red lines” amendment and the “last resort” amendment. Nobody who has read the report on the Hugging Face incident can fail to think that we need legislation now to deal with these kinds of...

My Lords, we have had some excellent speeches in this group. I hope that the Minister has taken on board some of the points made by people who really know what they are talking about in the AI field. I will speak to my Amendment 84 and in strong support...

My Lords, we have had some excellent speeches in this group. I hope that the Minister has taken on board some of the points made by people who really know what they are talking about in the AI field. I will speak to my Amendment 84 and in strong support...

My Lords, I shall begin with Amendment 12 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I completely understand the necessity and urgency of taking action on these things. The noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, set out the absolute urgency and the growing weight...

My Lords, I shall begin with Amendment 12 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I completely understand the necessity and urgency of taking action on these things. The noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, set out the absolute urgency and the growing weight...

I thank noble Lords for their amendments, and I recognise the concerns that have been expressed. Technology is evolving at a rapid pace, and it is important that we harness the benefits and, equally, protect against the risks it may pose.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, asked about the...

I thank noble Lords for their amendments, and I recognise the concerns that have been expressed. Technology is evolving at a rapid pace, and it is important that we harness the benefits and, equally, protect against the risks it may pose.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, asked about the...

If I have understood what the Minister said, the NHS must protect itself, but the AI that is attacking it has no duties or obligations under the Bill to check itself before it is used in those ways. That is what I think is the Government’s position, and I would...

If I have understood what the Minister said, the NHS must protect itself, but the AI that is attacking it has no duties or obligations under the Bill to check itself before it is used in those ways. That is what I think is the Government’s position, and I would...

It is 5 trillion a year.

It is 5 trillion a year.

Five trillion, a year. I am grateful to the Minister for answering my question because, very often, that does not happen. That really points at a problem.

5.45 pm

Finally, on the AISI point—we will probably come back to it a little bit in the next group—a few months ago AISI dropped...

Five trillion, a year. I am grateful to the Minister for answering my question because, very often, that does not happen. That really points at a problem.

5.45 pm

Finally, on the AISI point—we will probably come back to it a little bit in the next group—a few months ago AISI dropped...

To respond to the question about how the Bill approaches certain AI products and services, as I mentioned in respect of Amendment 6, were AI services to be brought into the ambit of the Bill as proposed in Amendment 6, that would not address some of the harms that the...

To respond to the question about how the Bill approaches certain AI products and services, as I mentioned in respect of Amendment 6, were AI services to be brought into the ambit of the Bill as proposed in Amendment 6, that would not address some of the harms that the...

Moved by

Lord Birt

7: Clause 7, page 6, line 31, after “engine” insert “, software or a digital platform,”

Member’s explanatory statement

This amendment, and others in the name of Lord Birt, seek to include software and platform providers in the definition of a relevant digital service provider.

Moved by

Lord Birt

7: Clause 7, page 6, line 31, after “engine” insert “, software or a digital platform,”

Member’s explanatory statement

This amendment, and others in the name of Lord Birt, seek to include software and platform providers in the definition of a relevant digital service provider.

My Lords, I will also speak to all the other amendments in my name, which are all supported by the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, and some by others of your Lordships.

The Bill in its present form, as others have already said, is extraordinarily limited in scope and ambition—well short, for...

My Lords, I will also speak to all the other amendments in my name, which are all supported by the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, and some by others of your Lordships.

The Bill in its present form, as others have already said, is extraordinarily limited in scope and ambition—well short, for...

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 7, 9, 11, 76, 77 and 88 to 91 in the name of my noble friend Lord Birt, each of which I have added my name to, and to Amendment 87 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

6 pm

Since Second Reading,...

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 7, 9, 11, 76, 77 and 88 to 91 in the name of my noble friend Lord Birt, each of which I have added my name to, and to Amendment 87 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

6 pm

Since Second Reading,...

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to this group of amendments; I was certainly delighted to sign those in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Birt. Before turning to the specific subject matter, I say that the point he raised about JLR is germane to our broader...

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to this group of amendments; I was certainly delighted to sign those in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Birt. Before turning to the specific subject matter, I say that the point he raised about JLR is germane to our broader...

My Lords, the last two interventions seemed to raise two issues, not one. The first is the question of how many regulators and the second is their coverage. Who will they regulate? Will they regulate just, say, the public sector, or will they regulate, in effect, the whole of the...

My Lords, the last two interventions seemed to raise two issues, not one. The first is the question of how many regulators and the second is their coverage. Who will they regulate? Will they regulate just, say, the public sector, or will they regulate, in effect, the whole of the...

My Lords, I first congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Birt, on what is a really comprehensive vision expressed in this group of amendments. I speak in strong support of those amendments, on which both he and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, have spoken so cogently. Together, they address one of...

My Lords, I first congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Birt, on what is a really comprehensive vision expressed in this group of amendments. I speak in strong support of those amendments, on which both he and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, have spoken so cogently. Together, they address one of...

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Birt, for introducing this debate and all noble Lords who have spoken. I appreciate the rigorous strategic thinking that the noble Lords, Lord Birt and Lord Londesborough, have put into the proposal for an office for cyber resilience, but I will try...

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Birt, for introducing this debate and all noble Lords who have spoken. I appreciate the rigorous strategic thinking that the noble Lords, Lord Birt and Lord Londesborough, have put into the proposal for an office for cyber resilience, but I will try...

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Birt and Lord Clement-Jones, for their introduction to this section and for setting out the motivation behind a single cyber regulator.

As others have pointed out, this is a question of sectoral expertise and cyber expertise. It is my view that, given the complex cyber...

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Birt and Lord Clement-Jones, for their introduction to this section and for setting out the motivation behind a single cyber regulator.

As others have pointed out, this is a question of sectoral expertise and cyber expertise. It is my view that, given the complex cyber...

In this recovery regime, will whatever organisations that are to be regulated be levied for the service of regulation that will be provided, or will the revenue come as a result of fines? If that is the case, I hope they will not raise the revenue by finding fault. What...

In this recovery regime, will whatever organisations that are to be regulated be levied for the service of regulation that will be provided, or will the revenue come as a result of fines? If that is the case, I hope they will not raise the revenue by finding fault. What...

The intent behind the cost recovery model is to provide a fair approach so that regulators, when regulating on cyber, can recover the costs associated with that. Further guidance will

be put out on this. I cannot recall the Bill’s exact provisions on fines. I will come back to the...

The intent behind the cost recovery model is to provide a fair approach so that regulators, when regulating on cyber, can recover the costs associated with that. Further guidance will

be put out on this. I cannot recall the Bill’s exact provisions on fines. I will come back to the...

My Lords, I confess to a real disappointment listening to the Minister’s response. We have sat here all afternoon and heard many strong contributions on many matters, but so far, the Government do not appear to have moved an inch on any of them.

I have a few quick points. The...

My Lords, I confess to a real disappointment listening to the Minister’s response. We have sat here all afternoon and heard many strong contributions on many matters, but so far, the Government do not appear to have moved an inch on any of them.

I have a few quick points. The...

Moved by

Baroness Ludford

10: Clause 8, page 7, line 36, at end insert—

“(1A) In paragraph (1), after “risks” insert “, including risks arising from fraud,”.”

Member's explanatory statement

This amendment would explicitly include risks arising from fraud as one of the risks to the security of network and information systems that relevant digital...

Moved by

Baroness Ludford

10: Clause 8, page 7, line 36, at end insert—

“(1A) In paragraph (1), after “risks” insert “, including risks arising from fraud,”.”

Member's explanatory statement

This amendment would explicitly include risks arising from fraud as one of the risks to the security of network and information systems that relevant digital...

My Lords, I apologise for not having been much around earlier, but I am also involved in the Hillsborough Bill in the Chamber.

Amendment 10 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. It would insert just five words into Regulation 12 of the 2018 regulations so...

My Lords, I apologise for not having been much around earlier, but I am also involved in the Hillsborough Bill in the Chamber.

Amendment 10 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. It would insert just five words into Regulation 12 of the 2018 regulations so...

My Lords, I declare my interest as a chief engineer working for AtkinsRéalis. I shall speak to Amendment 82.

In our debate on group 3, a lot of good points were made about one specific technology related to cyber: AI. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said in the debate...

My Lords, I declare my interest as a chief engineer working for AtkinsRéalis. I shall speak to Amendment 82.

In our debate on group 3, a lot of good points were made about one specific technology related to cyber: AI. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said in the debate...

My Lords, I will speak to this substantial and rather disparate group of amendments, including Amendments 93 to 95 in my name, Amendment 10 tabled by my noble friend Lady Ludford, and a number of other amendments in

the names of other noble Lords, including that of the noble Lord,...

My Lords, I will speak to this substantial and rather disparate group of amendments, including Amendments 93 to 95 in my name, Amendment 10 tabled by my noble friend Lady Ludford, and a number of other amendments in

the names of other noble Lords, including that of the noble Lord,...

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, for introducing this group. I am generally supportive of the principles she is introducing, and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I particularly enjoyed trying to get my head round ten septillion, however many zeros that...

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, for introducing this group. I am generally supportive of the principles she is introducing, and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I particularly enjoyed trying to get my head round ten septillion, however many zeros that...

I thank noble Lords for their amendments in this group, which I will endeavour to cover in my response, starting with the lead amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. Fraud risks

and fraud are indeed important to address. The Bill requires relevant digital service providers to prevent or mitigate...

I thank noble Lords for their amendments in this group, which I will endeavour to cover in my response, starting with the lead amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. Fraud risks

and fraud are indeed important to address. The Bill requires relevant digital service providers to prevent or mitigate...

My Lords, can I clarify the Minister’s response to my amendment? She stated that the statement of strategic priorities should not refer to specific technologies, implying that it is difficult to change. The reasoning behind my amendment was precisely because the statement of strategic priorities is a more flexible instrument...

My Lords, can I clarify the Minister’s response to my amendment? She stated that the statement of strategic priorities should not refer to specific technologies, implying that it is difficult to change. The reasoning behind my amendment was precisely because the statement of strategic priorities is a more flexible instrument...

The content of the statement of strategic priorities will be subject to consultation and we will be working with regulators on that. It could include specific risks, whether from quantum or from fraud. What I do not want to do right now is to commit that it will include that,...

The content of the statement of strategic priorities will be subject to consultation and we will be working with regulators on that. It could include specific risks, whether from quantum or from fraud. What I do not want to do right now is to commit that it will include that,...

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. Her last words gave me a little bit more hope than the rest of her response, to be honest, when she said that the statement of strategic priorities could include specific risks, because it seemed to me that she was otherwise...

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. Her last words gave me a little bit more hope than the rest of her response, to be honest, when she said that the statement of strategic priorities could include specific risks, because it seemed to me that she was otherwise...

Moved by

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom

15A: Clause 12, page 10, leave out lines 27 and 28 and insert—

“(a) P supplies goods or services, whether directly or through one or more intermediaries, on which an OES for which the authority is the designated competent authority materially depends for the provision of an...

Moved by

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom

15A: Clause 12, page 10, leave out lines 27 and 28 and insert—

“(a) P supplies goods or services, whether directly or through one or more intermediaries, on which an OES for which the authority is the designated competent authority materially depends for the provision of an...

My Lords, I apologise for having spent less time in Committee than I would have liked, but I have been speaking on the Public Office (Accountability) Bill. I am grateful to those noble Lords who I suspect have been speaking to amendments on my behalf.

Amendments 15A and 15B are about...

My Lords, I apologise for having spent less time in Committee than I would have liked, but I have been speaking on the Public Office (Accountability) Bill. I am grateful to those noble Lords who I suspect have been speaking to amendments on my behalf.

Amendments 15A and 15B are about...

My Lords, I will speak briefly to my Amendment 16. In my view, the central problem is that, if I am small or medium-sized firm, I cannot currently tell with any confidence whether I am within the scope of the Bill as a critical supplier. Small and medium-sized enterprises are...

My Lords, I will speak briefly to my Amendment 16. In my view, the central problem is that, if I am small or medium-sized firm, I cannot currently tell with any confidence whether I am within the scope of the Bill as a critical supplier. Small and medium-sized enterprises are...

My Lords, I shall speak in support of this group on designated critical suppliers. I support in particular Amendments 15A and 15B, which were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom; I have signed them both. We are also sympathetic in principle to Amendment 16 in the name...

My Lords, I shall speak in support of this group on designated critical suppliers. I support in particular Amendments 15A and 15B, which were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom; I have signed them both. We are also sympathetic in principle to Amendment 16 in the name...

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for introducing this group; as it is the final group of the day, I will keep my remarks brief.

Amendments 15A and 15B in the names of my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, seek to allow regulatory oversight of...

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for introducing this group; as it is the final group of the day, I will keep my remarks brief.

Amendments 15A and 15B in the names of my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, seek to allow regulatory oversight of...

I thank noble Lords, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Ravensdale, for engaging with the incredibly important question of drawing the right scope in the Bill for the designation of those in the supply chain. It is incredibly important that we get this right and take into...

I thank noble Lords, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Ravensdale, for engaging with the incredibly important question of drawing the right scope in the Bill for the designation of those in the supply chain. It is incredibly important that we get this right and take into...

My Lords, I listened carefully to what the Minister said. She made some very reasonable points and she may even be right, but I will need to take it away and think about it. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

My Lords, I listened carefully to what the Minister said. She made some very reasonable points and she may even be right, but I will need to take it away and think about it. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to the Ministry of Defence annual report and accounts 2025 to 2026, Losses, if he will provide further information on the £4,739,000 constructive loss in relation to the cancellation of the Software Module Project.

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to the Ministry of Defence annual report and accounts 2025 to 2026, Losses, if he will provide further information on the £4,739,000 constructive loss in relation to the cancellation of the Software Module Project.