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My Lords, is it a fact that all our immigration controls now go to Brussels as a result of the Lisbon treaty?
Asked by
Earl Ferrers (Conservative)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, the statement on the changes in the immigration rules has just been published and is now law. The original draft of Rule 352 included the possibility of medical examinations with a view to establishing age. In the final version of Rule 352, that does not appear. The conclusion that was drawn by all the agencies was that the Government had dropped the proposal. If they go ahead with dental X-rays, do they intend to publish yet another statement of changes in the rules?
Asked by
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, we are aware of the point raised by my noble friend, although all the experts we have talked with agree that the risks to health from this radiation are negligible. It is a common procedure in dentistry.
Answered by
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c320
House
House of Lords
My Lords, that is not correct. We are not fully part of the Schengen agreement. Although the EU has issued a procedures directive there is further work to be done. We have not yet decided fully that dental X-rays are the right procedure and therefore we do not think it is wise to include those EU changes in our rules at the moment. We shall have to wait until we have further consultation.
Answered by
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, the noble Baroness is correct. In about 95 per cent of cases it is within plus or minus two years, but this technique, combined with a social worker’s assessment and other techniques, can narrow down the possible range of ages. It is therefore a useful tool. People sometimes use dental X-rays to try to prove their own age. They are also used by many EU countries. However, it is because of the concern that has been expressed that we are having further consultation. The technique is part of a package of measures that will enable us to identify the age of immigrants.
Answered by
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c320
House
House of Lords
My Lords, how accurate is dental age profiling perceived to be? Does the Minister agree with the Children’s Commissioner that such X-rays have a margin of error of about two years, which might produce fairly inaccurate results on children seeking asylum?
Asked by
Baroness Hanham (Conservative)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c320
House
House of Lords
My Lords, I admit I am not an expert in reading dental plates but I am assured it is plus or minus two years. As I say, in conjunction with the other methods we use, it is a useful tool. This is why we are continuing the consultation. It would be wonderful if there was a magic bullet which allowed us to identify age exactly. The cost of dealing with these people who are not children is about £140 million a year—which is quite a lot of money—and there are also these risks to youngsters. We must push on to try to do the best we can on this.
Answered by
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, that is correct. Indeed, we bend over backwards to ensure that the error tends to be the other way. That is why I am concerned about these child protection issues. The number of children who have been returned to any country is very small. We are careful not to use X-rays as the sole data, but they are useful. We are still consulting and this might not be the final outcome. We must wait until the paper comes out in the spring.
Answered by
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, if the margin of error can be as much as two years, can we be assured that no decisions will be taken on these matters exclusively on the basis of such data?
Asked by
Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, I have been trying to read dental X-rays for about 40 years. Once the wisdom teeth have been removed it would be impossible to tell how old a patient is from looking at dental X-rays.
Asked by
Lord Colwyn (Conservative)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c321
House
House of Lords
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a general opinion that X-rays that are not advisable for medical reasons should be discontinued?
Asked by
Baroness Whitaker (Labour)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c320
House
House of Lords
My Lords, the Minister said that it was plus or minus two years. When you are trying to establish the age of an unaccompanied child for immigration purposes, that is very unsatisfactory. Have not two local authorities piloted other procedures which are satisfactory? Is the Minister aware of them?
Asked by
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (Liberal Democrat)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c320
House
House of Lords
My Lords, as I stated, we use the X-ray technique in conjunction with other measures such as social workers talking to these people and assessing their age by other means. When these are put together as a package it is very useful. We are talking about significant numbers of people coming in and claiming to be of this age. About 3,000 unaccompanied children come into the country every year and in the region of 1,000 to 2,000 people claim to be of this age. There are very serious issues here. If we put an adult into the children’s arena it raises serious child protection issues when he gains access to their support, accommodation and so on. It is extremely important to try to narrow down the age.
Answered by
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c320
House
House of Lords
What representations they have received against the use of X-rays as an aid to age determination in immigration control.
Asked by
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Oral questions - Lead
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c319
House
House of Lords
My Lords, in the changes to the rules that have now been published there is no mention of medical examinations. Does that mean that, apart from the weighty arguments that have been received by the Government from many expert bodies, such as the BMA, the BDA, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and so on, the Government also agree with the opinion expressed by Mr Nicholas Blake QC that it would be unlawful to subject persons claiming to be minors to ionising radiation as, it appears, would have been permitted by the original draft of the rules? I thank the Government for apparently coming to the right decision about X-rays, but would it not have been better to have consulted those professional bodies of experts before publishing the draft?
Asked by
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Oral questions - 1st Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
13 December 2007
Reference
697 c319-20
House
House of Lords

asked Her Majesty's Government:What representations they received from the British Dental Association regarding the use of dental X-rays to assist in determining the age of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children; and whether they will place copies of this and other representations on this subject in the Library of the House, together with...

Asked by
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Written questions
Status
Answered
Date
3 December 2007
Reference
458; 696 c151-2WA
House
House of Lords

To ask the Secretary of State for Health by what date he expects to set the timetable awaited by the West Kent Primary Care Trust for the submission and consideration by his Department of the trust’s bid for community hospital capital funding of a new X-ray machine at Edenbridge Hospital.

Asked by
John Stanley (Conservative)
Answering body
Department of Health
Type
Written questions
Status
Answered
Date
10 September 2007
Reference
155077; 463 c1956W
House
House of Commons

We are getting close to the cut-off time. We consulted and we have heard their comments, so we are well aware of those issues. I do not like the implication that somehow we failed to consult extensively because we have.

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c112GC
House
House of Lords

I was in the process of winding up, and I hope that we can bring this matter to a conclusion. Before we leave universities altogether, like the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, I have read the papers and looked at the consultation, and I am perfectly well aware of what the...

Member
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c85-6GC
House
House of Lords

That is a constructive and helpful response from the Minister. On the understanding that we shall be clear about what happened in those discussions before we come to Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Member
Lord Judd (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c91GC
House
House of Lords

As I have said before in our deliberations, I have no alternative but to withdraw the amendment in these proceedings. We could debate this at great length. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Avebury and Lord Hylton, for their interventions. To the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, I simply would say...

Member
Lord Judd (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c91GC
House
House of Lords

moved Amendment No. 41: 41: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— ““Appeal rights In section 83(1)(b) of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (c. 41) (appeal: asylum claims) omit the words ““for a period exceeding one year (or for periods exceeding one year in aggregate)””.”” The noble...

Member
Lord Judd (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c87-8GC
House
House of Lords

moved Amendment No. 37: 37: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— ““Children (1) The Secretary of State shall issue a code of practice designed to ensure that in exercising functions in the United Kingdom the Border and Immigration Agency takes appropriate steps to ensure that while children are...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c86-7GC
House
House of Lords

I warmly congratulate my noble friend Lord Goodhart on his ingenuity in bringing what is effectively a nationality problem within the ambit of the Long Title of this Bill which is concerned with immigration. In the British Nationality Act 1948, a child born overseas to a British mother and a...

Member
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c94-6GC
House
House of Lords

I have carefully avoided saying just that.

Member
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c98GC
House
House of Lords

I take it from that that the noble Baroness agrees with all that the noble Lord said, and that it is official Conservative Front Bench policy. I was hoping to find out whether that was the case.

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c98GC
House
House of Lords

The noble Lord could come to it now.

Member
Lord Higgins (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c99GC
House
House of Lords

I think the noble Lord is trying to help me to get to the point. There will always be a difficulty with a boundary or a cut-off point, wherever it is placed. That is an issue. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, made the point that we can minimise the element...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c99-100GC
House
House of Lords

The noble Lord is asking me to describe the basis of the original discrimination. We accept that that discrimination was there, which is why we made the changes. No doubt that is why the Conservative Party dealt with it in the way that it did back in 1983. It was...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c100-1GC
House
House of Lords

We are all struggling to hear from the Minister the virtue that attaches to 1961. If he were able to give the Committee a justification for that date, he might assist not only the Committee but, I suspect, the House at a later stage. I have this foreboding that this...

Member
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c101GC
House
House of Lords

Perhaps I should start by talking about the cut-off point. I tried to explain earlier in my speech why I did not go back to before 1 January 1949. The reason is that, until that date, the great majority of British women who married foreigners would have acquired their husband’s...

Member
Lord Goodhart (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c102GC
House
House of Lords

I would be very happy if I thought that the circumstances made it plainly desirable to dispense with one. I simply think that giving British citizenship to the child of a couple, neither of whom had British citizenship on the date of the child’s birth, would present serious problems and...

Member
Lord Goodhart (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c102GC
House
House of Lords

First, rule number one is never look a gift horse in the mouth. Secondly, I have heard all sides of the Committee on this. Thirdly, I have drawn the conclusion that we ought at least to have an all-party discussion on it to see if there is some way to...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c103GC
House
House of Lords

There was an interesting discussion on a very similar amendment in the Public Bill Committee on 15 March. The Minister, Joan Ryan, said then that there would be reports to Parliament on the operation not only of Clause 19 but of every other clause, and that the independent inspectorate would...

Member
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c76-7GC
House
House of Lords

The noble Lord challenges us over universities. I am prepared to accept that there might be something of a mixed picture in terms of overseas applicants to UK universities, but I think that the case is broadly that we are competitive and we have been extremely successful over the past...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c83GC
House
House of Lords

We have had an interesting short debate, covering monogamy, passport personal interview centres, replies by the recently ennobled Lord, the noble Lord, Lord West, and a plea for family reunion. It is amazing what can be squeezed into a Lords Committee debate. I congratulate noble Lords on their ingenuity. The...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c80-2GC
House
House of Lords

It is a bit difficult to do that because it would depend on the details of the implementation timetable, which we are giving further consideration to in our leisure hours. The noble Lord teases me about the Home Office, but it is a not-infrequent tease. It will not have escaped...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c77GC
House
House of Lords

I am grateful to the Minister for his response. He told us that the arguments have not moved on, but went on to assure us that a regulatory impact assessment will be made by his department and copies of it will be placed in the Library. When is that likely...

Member
Lord Henley (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c77GC
House
House of Lords

I follow the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. Do the figures quoted by the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, include both the capital costs of the new offices and the current cost of running them for a year? I do not know. I would dissent...

Member
Lord Hylton (Crossbench)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c80GC
House
House of Lords

Far be it from me to come to the defence of Minister—that is not my job. This question is a long way wide of the amendment, which concerns the fees that a sponsor pays to bring someone into the United Kingdom. While it is perfectly legitimate for the Minister to...

Member
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c85GC
House
House of Lords

I think that the noble Lord gave figures for the years up to 2005. As he knows, the immigration statistics for 2006 are not yet published and are not due until August. It would be very useful if the noble Lord could give us the number of children whose age...

Member
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c110GC
House
House of Lords

That is fine. There still seems to be a slight contradiction, but I will move on.

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c108GC
House
House of Lords

As a magistrate who has had to sit through many training sessions for paediatricians and who has gained by the experience, I think that I should speak up for them and say that they have to take account of a person’s nutritional background. There is malnutrition and abuse in this...

Member
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c106-7GC
House
House of Lords

The noble Lord may say that, but in the consultation document on the process of age determination, there was no reference to the 1981 report. Therefore, I must be given leave to suspect that there are people in the Minister’s department who were not aware of its existence. That report...

Member
Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c104-5GC
House
House of Lords

They will be published by the end of August.

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c112GC
House
House of Lords

I hesitate to intervene, but I must, even though I know we are to finish dead on a quarter to eight. When I spoke, I very carefully referred to paediatricians in the family court. I was not referring to dental X-rays; I was talking about the science of interpretation of...

Member
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c111-2GC
House
House of Lords

I know that the noble Lord has a great technical grasp of these matters, but I was arguing that paediatricians in this country are able to give informed interpretation of the information before them. As the Minister has said, the use of dental ionisation X-rays is just one part of...

Member
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c111GC
House
House of Lords

I am more than happy to give the noble Lord that assurance, if he feels that there are outstanding issues with regard to the appeals process. He has raised again the issue of discrimination, which he quite properly raised earlier. I am more than happy to say that between Committee...

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c91GC
House
House of Lords

I made the point that the legacy that most of us now consider to be repugnant or otiose is one that cannot simply be ignored.

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c99GC
House
House of Lords

I shall come to the point later.

Member
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
18 July 2007
Reference
694 c99GC
House
House of Lords