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My Lords, these comments from other Members are what one would want to hear, in many respects, but we must remember that we are dealing here with the republican movement. I use that term to underline the extent to which and way in which it tries to present itself as something innocuous, wanting to rewrite the past—or, if it cannot do that, pretend or create a situation in which blame can be put on the security forces that have worked so hard over the years. We need to move forward on that carefully and understand the full nature of what we are dealing with.
My Lords, these comments from other Members are what one would want to hear, in many respects, but we must remember that we are dealing here with the republican movement. I use that term to underline the extent to which and way in which it tries to present itself as something innocuous, wanting to rewrite the past—or, if it cannot do that, pretend or create a situation in which blame can be put on the security forces that have worked so hard over the years. We need to move forward on that carefully and understand the full nature of what we are dealing with.
That allows me to say, in response to my noble friend’s question, that the focus is on looking ahead, not back, and on information recovery and reconciliation. Those two things should be at the heart of the revised legacy system, not looking back.
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for having the paper circulated to us. I briefly refer to the last paragraph, which talks about measures targeted specifically at groups most at risk but goes on to say:
“Such a policy should probably have been started before the end of June”.
I fear that the authors are not being realistic about the date for the targets and have not taken account of the difficulties for Ministers who wish to make a change but find that making changes is extremely difficult under our processes. I recall that, when Matt Hancock talked about increasing the targets for testing, he was met with derision. I hope that that will not happen here.
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for having the paper circulated to us. I briefly refer to the last paragraph, which talks about measures targeted specifically at groups most at risk but goes on to say:
“Such a policy should probably have been started before the end of June”.
I fear that the authors are not being realistic about the date for the targets and have not taken account of the difficulties for Ministers who wish to make a change but find that making changes is extremely difficult under our processes. I recall that, when Matt Hancock talked about increasing the targets for testing, he was met with derision. I hope that that will not happen here.
My Lords, I agree that the Government are in a different position in their response to the target now than they were at the start of the outbreak. We now know a lot more about the virus and we have developed in our research institutions the first effective therapeutic response to it. The test and trace system has been going for around seven weeks and has shown an increase in its efficacy week on week. We want to build on that so that we can have a more targeted and localised response to any future outbreaks.
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on raising this issue. For me, the issue is still open and the jury is out, and we shall see how these things develop. I suggest that noble Lords should emulate the Conservative Party in 1945, which accepted the result of the election, which brought in a reformist Government. They should realise that the recent election that we have had has the potential to change the state of our democracy and should be treated with more respect than some noble Lords have given it over recent weeks.
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on raising this issue. For me, the issue is still open and the jury is out, and we shall see how these things develop. I suggest that noble Lords should emulate the Conservative Party in 1945, which accepted the result of the election, which brought in a reformist Government. They should realise that the recent election that we have had has the potential to change the state of our democracy and should be treated with more respect than some noble Lords have given it over recent weeks.
I am happy to agree with my noble friend that we should accept the result of the recent election.
My Lords, is the problem not that you cannot bring in an arbitrator unless the parties agree to it? It is very obvious that one party is not willing to do that. Consequently, it is time for the Government to go to other procedures, not even to wait until then. If the Government take some action to enable the Assembly, or Assembly Members, to meet to discuss local services, that would be a step forward and would put pressure on Sinn Féin to come in.
My Lords, is the problem not that you cannot bring in an arbitrator unless the parties agree to it? It is very obvious that one party is not willing to do that. Consequently, it is time for the Government to go to other procedures, not even to wait until then. If the Government take some action to enable the Assembly, or Assembly Members, to meet to discuss local services, that would be a step forward and would put pressure on Sinn Féin to come in.
My noble friend will recall that, when we last discussed this, one aspect of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act was to give stronger guidance to the civil servants, and we have done that. However, the point he raises remains valid. An independent arbiter cannot solve all the problems. The problems will ultimately have to be solved by the politicians in Northern Ireland. As I said in answer to questions earlier, we are now talking about a matter of weeks, not months or years.
Will the Minister agree that a lot of the problems yesterday stemmed from the fact that people were leaking inaccurate accounts of what was in the Government’s paper, and were not making it clear that the proposal for some form of regulatory alignment was heavily conditioned and of very limited application? If that information had been put into the public domain earlier in the day, would not things have gone much more smoothly?
Will the Minister agree that a lot of the problems yesterday stemmed from the fact that people were leaking inaccurate accounts of what was in the Government’s paper, and were not making it clear that the proposal for some form of regulatory alignment was heavily conditioned and of very limited application? If that information had been put into the public domain earlier in the day, would not things have gone much more smoothly?
My noble friend speaks with great authority on this subject, having been one of the architects of the Good Friday agreement. We all know the political sacrifices he made to bring that about. I pay tribute to him for that. I do not think it would be helpful for me to go into a blow-by-blow account of whataboutery on the negotiations. We are only half way through the negotiations. We will come back and make a Statement when we have agreement, but at the moment this is an ongoing, delicate situation.
To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth on 15 September (HL1347–1351) relating to prisoner release, whether they will now answer the questions asked.
To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth on 15 September (HL1347–1351) relating to prisoner release, whether they will now answer the questions asked.
The Northern Ireland Office have completed the consolidation exercise with the Sentence Review Commission and will respond this week.
My Lords, to return to the question of the two parts of Ireland, does my noble friend recall that Monsieur Barnier, after publication of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals, said that the European Union was opposed to an invisible border? Surely there will be no progress on this issue until Europe changes its mind.
My Lords, to return to the question of the two parts of Ireland, does my noble friend recall that Monsieur Barnier, after publication of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals, said that the European Union was opposed to an invisible border? Surely there will be no progress on this issue until Europe changes its mind.
My Lords, my noble friend, who has some of the best experience of the issues of importance to Northern Ireland, raises a crucial point. Flexibility is important from the Commission and also from other members of the European 27. A political decision will ultimately make the difference. It is worth noting that the Motion in the European Parliament to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred a moment ago proposed that one part of the United Kingdom—Northern Ireland—could remain in the single market and the customs union, thereby breaking up the United Kingdom. That cannot be a way forward.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many loyalist prisoners, released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998, have been recalled; and of those, how many were subsequently released under that Act.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many loyalist prisoners, released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998, have been recalled; and of those, how many were subsequently released under that Act.
Northern Ireland Office officials are currently undertaking a consolidation exercise, in conjunction with the Sentence Review Commissioners to confirm the answers to your questions. I will write to the Noble Lord once this exercise has been completed.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many republican prisoners, released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998, have been recalled; and of those, how many were subsequently released under that Act.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many republican prisoners, released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998, have been recalled; and of those, how many were subsequently released under that Act.
Northern Ireland Office officials are currently undertaking a consolidation exercise, in conjunction with the Sentence Review Commissioners to confirm the answers to your questions. I will write to the Noble Lord once this exercise has been completed.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many loyalist prisoners sentenced for a scheduled offence have been refused release under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 and have not yet been released.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many loyalist prisoners sentenced for a scheduled offence have been refused release under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 and have not yet been released.
Northern Ireland Office officials are currently undertaking a consolidation exercise, in conjunction with the Sentence Review Commissioners to confirm the answers to your questions. I will write to the Noble Lord once this exercise has been completed.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many republican prisoners sentenced for a scheduled offence have been refused release under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 and have not yet been released.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many republican prisoners sentenced for a scheduled offence have been refused release under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 and have not yet been released.
Northern Ireland Office officials are currently undertaking a consolidation exercise, in conjunction with the Sentence Review Commissioners to confirm the answers to your questions. I will write to the Noble Lord once this exercise has been completed.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many prisoners have been released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998; and of that number, how many prisoners were designated as (1) loyalist, and (2) republican.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many prisoners have been released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998; and of that number, how many prisoners were designated as (1) loyalist, and (2) republican.
Northern Ireland Office officials are currently undertaking a consolidation exercise, in conjunction with the Sentence Review Commissioners to confirm the answers to your questions. I will write to the Noble Lord once this exercise has been completed.
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is a shame that the party opposite is so slow in catching up with its leadership?
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is a shame that the party opposite is so slow in catching up with its leadership?
I wonder what leadership my noble friend is referring to. I am sure that the party opposite is wholly united behind its leader.
My Lords, have any of those being removed committed offences here or abroad? If so, how many of them?
My Lords, have any of those being removed committed offences here or abroad? If so, how many of them?
Currently in the immigration detention estate there are about 2,700 people. Of those, 40% are foreign national offenders. If one then takes into account those who have committed immigration offences, they are the overwhelming majority of all those who are held in detention. They are held in detention as a last resort in exceptional circumstances, just prior to departure.
My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to the Dudgeon case, which concerned the legalisation of homosexuality. Mr Dudgeon was from Northern Ireland, where homosexuality was still an offence when it was not an offence elsewhere. He went to the European Court, which held that human rights must be uniform throughout the country. I think that that might be relevant here, too.
My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to the Dudgeon case, which concerned the legalisation of homosexuality. Mr Dudgeon was from Northern Ireland, where homosexuality was still an offence when it was not an offence elsewhere. He went to the European Court, which held that human rights must be uniform throughout the country. I think that that might be relevant here, too.
The question of uniformity is difficult. Although the European Court of Human Rights maintains certain core standards, it nevertheless acknowledges a margin of appreciation for all members of the Council of Europe. We may well feel that some
countries respect these better than others, but unless there is a violation of a convention right, that is a matter for the individual country.
My Lords, has the Minister seen the speculation in the press recently that the Turkish Government may be about to intervene in Syria to create a safe haven and prevent the creation of a Kurdish-controlled area? If he has seen that speculation, would he like to comment on it?
My Lords, has the Minister seen the speculation in the press recently that the Turkish Government may be about to intervene in Syria to create a safe haven and prevent the creation of a Kurdish-controlled area? If he has seen that speculation, would he like to comment on it?
I have not seen the speculation and therefore I trust that my noble friend will allow me not to comment on it, but I note the point.
My Lords, the underlying problem here is the fact that this inquiry was not constituted under the Inquiries Act 2005. If it had been set up under the Act, as it should have been, the inquiry would have been conducted more efficiently, the Minister setting it up would have had a power to call for it to be concluded and handed over to him, and this problem would not have arisen. Lessons should be learned, and they are contained in the report that the noble Lord referred to. The Government should review their response to that report.
My Lords, the underlying problem here is the fact that this inquiry was not constituted under the Inquiries Act 2005. If it had been set up under the Act, as it should have been, the inquiry would have been conducted more efficiently, the Minister setting it up would have had a power to call for it to be concluded and handed over to him, and this problem would not have arisen. Lessons should be learned, and they are contained in the report that the noble Lord referred to. The Government should review their response to that report.
My Lords, once again I have to say that we will have to learn these lessons. My noble friend makes a very valid point, but the inquiry is independent and it is following the process that it has set out.
My Lords, in reply to an earlier question, the Minister referred to the numerous documents that had to be sifted and I am sure that he was absolutely right. Does he not agree with me that this is where having a good-quality counsel for an inquiry is essential? Am I right in thinking that Chilcot decided that he could do without such a person?
My Lords, in reply to an earlier question, the Minister referred to the numerous documents that had to be sifted and I am sure that he was absolutely right. Does he not agree with me that this is where having a good-quality counsel for an inquiry is essential? Am I right in thinking that Chilcot decided that he could do without such a person?
My Lords, I am not so sure that the quality of the counsel in this case was important. As I understand it, it was the sheer volume of documents that had to be sifted, a number of which were discovered to be relevant at a later stage of the inquiry, and then the whole question of what could be released. This is a very new kind of inquiry in terms of the amount of highly classified material—much of it relating to discussions with other Governments—that will be released.
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Northern Ireland Act, which implemented the agreement, expressly reserves and protects this Parliament’s right to override that legislation, in just the same way that it has the power to override others in the national interest? How long will the Minister wait before the inevitable exercise of that power?
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Northern Ireland Act, which implemented the agreement, expressly reserves and protects this Parliament’s right to override that legislation, in just the same way that it has the power to override others in the national interest? How long will the Minister wait before the inevitable exercise of that power?
My Lords, the Government do not intend to breach the Sewel convention on this issue. We believe that there is still work that can profitably be done to bring all parties in Northern Ireland to agreement on this issue. If agreement is not reached, the parties will have to decide what measures they need to take on devolved issues to deal with the problems that they face.