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Lords motion to agree the seventh report of the Conduct Committee on The conduct of Lord Dannatt (HL 219). Agreed to on question. Lords motion to resolve that, in accordance with Standing Order 11, Lord Dannatt be suspended from the service of the House for a period of four months; and that, in accordance with section 1 of the House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015, in the opinion of this House, the conduct giving rise to this resolution occurred after the coming into force of that Act. Agreed to on question.
Lords motion to agree the seventh report of the Conduct Committee on The conduct of Lord Dannatt (HL 219). Agreed to on question. Lords motion to resolve that, in accordance with Standing Order 11, Lord Dannatt be suspended from the service of the House for a period of four months;...
My Lords, there are two reports on today’s Order Paper and, while they are unconnected, in the interests of time I shall speak to both. The first report is on the conduct of the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt. This follows the publication of allegations in the Guardian newspaper in March,...
My Lords, there are two reports on today’s Order Paper and, while they are unconnected, in the interests of time I shall speak to both. The first report is on the conduct of the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt. This follows the publication of allegations in the Guardian newspaper in March,...
Moved by
Lord Kakkar
Moved by
Lord Kakkar
(4) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments to discuss the final stages of a procurement bid...
(4) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments to discuss the final stages of a procurement bid...
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
Substantive answer from Philip Dunne to Kevan Jones and Jim Murphy:
I write in response to Parliamentary Questions regarding the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years and information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces, Hon. Andrew Robathan MP, informed you that we would provide this information once the Permanent Secretary had reviewed the access that six named retired military officers maintain to Defence, the rules around such access, compliance with those rules, and the level of transparency adopted by the Department. Following my announcement in the House today, I am pleased to confirm the details of our review.
This review has taken some time to complete, as a central record, of meetings between MOD staff and retired personnel is not kept. The size of the Department and the natural turnover of staff would make this an impossible and disproportionate task to record routinely. However, the review exercise has gathered an extensive amount of information about the level of access that the six named individuals maintained to senior civilian and military staff. It found no evidence to indicate that retired or former employees have, or are able, to influence any MOD equipment contracts.
A rigorous process is used for the approval of all equipment projects which involves non-advocate scrutiny of all major investment decisions by an Investment Approvals Committee which provides advice to Ministers and the Accounting Officer.
The overall number of occasions the six named individuals have had contact with senior MOD civilian and military staff since their retirement is contained in the following table.
| Number
of occasions of access to senior MOD
personnel | |
| Admiral
Sir Trevor
Soar | 15 |
| Lord
Stirrup | 37 |
| Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | 51 |
| Lord
Dannatt | 21 |
| Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | 37 |
| General
Sir Mike
Jackson | 59 |
| Total | 268 |
The review also addressed the nature of the contact that has been maintained by the six named individuals with senior civilian and military staff in the MOD, which is summarised in the following table.
| Nature
of
meetings: | Number |
| Procurement | 39 |
| Industry
Sponsored | 25 |
| Academic | 5B |
| Charitable | 13 |
| Ceremonial | 7 |
| Regimental | 32 |
| Inquiry
Related | 7 |
| Social | 31 |
| House
of
Lords—Stirrup | 6 |
| House
of
Lords—Dannatt | 3 |
| House
of
Lords—Both | 47 |
| Total | 268 |
The findings show that the vast majority of the contact that the six individuals maintained with the MOD contact was not to discuss procurement of equipment. The vast majority of the 39 occasions when the named individuals were identified as having discussed procurement were entirely within the rules and occurred beyond the period of any individual's lobbying ban. However, the review did find that one former General had breached the restrictions that related to his new employment - imposed on him by the Business Appointments process.
An audit of meetings shows that on 9 occasions Lt Gen Dick Applegate discussed defence equipment with the MOD which were considered in breach of the rules placed upon him since his retirement. None of these meetings resulted in any sales or influenced the MOD'S equipment plan and the MOD has reported this contact to the Cabinet Office - who have responsibility for the Advisory Committee for Business Appointments (ACOBA) - and made clear to the individual that such behaviour is not acceptable.
It is clear from enquiries made that this has been an issue at the MOD not only under this Government but also under the previous administration too. Enquiries have shown for example that under the previous Labour Government 7 former Chiefs continued to have security passes after they had retired, in some cases for a number of years.
In answer to your specific questions, the following tables provide details of meetings and other encounters between Ministers, General Sir David Richards, General Sir Peter Wall and Air Marshal Stephen Hillier with any of Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, Lieutenant General Sir John Kiszley, Lieutenant General Richard Applegate, General Lord Dannatt, Lord Stirrup and General Sir Mike Jackson.
Ministers
| Month
of
meeting | Minister | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| June
2010 | Min
(ISS), Gerald
Howarth | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss the Bloody Sunday
Inquiry |
| July
2010 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| March
2011 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Formation
of the National Memorial
Arboretum |
| April
2011 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Defence
Update |
| May
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Lord
Stirrup | Minister
was keynote speaker at UK Defence Forum
Dinner |
| May
2011 | Min(ISS)
Gerald
Howarth | Lord
Dannatt | Private
lunch in the House of
Commons |
| August
2011 | Secretary
of State, Dr Liam
Fox | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss
DIO |
| September
2011 | Min(DPWV),
right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion 90th Anniversary Thanksgiving Service and
Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| November
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Minister
was a keynote speaker at the Defence Acquisition Conference in
Shrivenham attended by the
General |
| September
2012 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Haig
Homes lunch hosted by Lord
Dannatt |
Since May 2010, Lord Astor of Hever has held around 20 routine defence briefings for Peers. Lord Dannatt (and, since retirement, Lord Stirrup) have been invited to these. These have not been included in the return.
General Sir David Richards (Chief of Defence Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Named
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| April
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Telephone
conversation on Friends of the Forces
Awards |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| November
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
General Sir Peter Wall (Chief of General Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| February
2011 | Lord
Dannatt | Routine
Meeting |
| March
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| July
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Routine
Meeting with Babcock |
| October
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| October
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| February
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| March
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| June
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
Air Vice Marshal (now Air Marshal) Stephen Hillier (Deputy Chief of Defence Staff, Military Capability) (meetings held when he was Director of Information Superiority)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| October
2010 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Defence
Leaders Forum and Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| March
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Charitable
Incorporated Organisation Forum Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| June
2011 | Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | Elbit
Systems
capabilities |
There are no records of any meetings between General Sir Nick Parker and the six listed individuals during the period in question. I can also confirm Andrew Robathan has never stayed as a guest with Sir John Kiszely. Details of meetings between the six named individuals and any other military or civilian members of the MOD could be provided only at disproportionate cost.
The MOD does not hold information about visits to other Government departments.
In light of the findings the Defence Secretary has taken steps to tighten up access and ensure that there cannot be any perception that former employees can exert influence on contracts awarded by the Department.
In order to prevent future occurrences, the Defence Secretary has implemented a comprehensive set of measures to ensure that both former and current employees are clear about the rules and restrictions in place. Under the new approach:
For the first time a list of all ex MOD personnel who are subject to lobbying restrictions under ACOBA will be available for all MOD staff to see;
All staff who leave the Department will now be required to sign a declaration as part of their application if they wish to take up industry posts;
The MOD Permanent Secretary has written to all former MOD personnel subject to business appointment restrictions to remind them of their duties under ACOBA;
The Permanent Secretary has also written to the Association of Defence suppliers to ensure industry members are aware of the Cabinet Office rules;
Transparency measures have been drastically increased - the Permanent Secretary, Chief of Defence Materiel and the Service Chiefs will now be required to publish details of any meetings with external organisations or individuals and of hospitality received. Additionally, selected senior civil servants and military personnel with a commercial aspect to their role will also have to comply with this new transparency agenda;
All MOD staff, both military and civilian, have been reminded by the Permanent Secretary and Chief of Defence Staff of the rules that limit contact with individuals and companies and directed that they need to seek guidance and clearance before any contact is made.
Since the Review the Permanent Secretary has removed almost 2,500 passes allowing access to the MOD'S Main Building to ensure that since Christmas only those members of staff who require regular access to the MOD are granted it. Passes that have not been used for sixty days have been disabled and there will be an ongoing audit of those being granted visitor passes.
(3) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments within two years of each of their retirements since...
(3) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments within two years of each of their retirements since...
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
Substantive answer from Philip Dunne to Kevan Jones and Jim Murphy:
I write in response to Parliamentary Questions regarding the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years and information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces, Hon. Andrew Robathan MP, informed you that we would provide this information once the Permanent Secretary had reviewed the access that six named retired military officers maintain to Defence, the rules around such access, compliance with those rules, and the level of transparency adopted by the Department. Following my announcement in the House today, I am pleased to confirm the details of our review.
This review has taken some time to complete, as a central record, of meetings between MOD staff and retired personnel is not kept. The size of the Department and the natural turnover of staff would make this an impossible and disproportionate task to record routinely. However, the review exercise has gathered an extensive amount of information about the level of access that the six named individuals maintained to senior civilian and military staff. It found no evidence to indicate that retired or former employees have, or are able, to influence any MOD equipment contracts.
A rigorous process is used for the approval of all equipment projects which involves non-advocate scrutiny of all major investment decisions by an Investment Approvals Committee which provides advice to Ministers and the Accounting Officer.
The overall number of occasions the six named individuals have had contact with senior MOD civilian and military staff since their retirement is contained in the following table.
| Number
of occasions of access to senior MOD
personnel | |
| Admiral
Sir Trevor
Soar | 15 |
| Lord
Stirrup | 37 |
| Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | 51 |
| Lord
Dannatt | 21 |
| Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | 37 |
| General
Sir Mike
Jackson | 59 |
| Total | 268 |
The review also addressed the nature of the contact that has been maintained by the six named individuals with senior civilian and military staff in the MOD, which is summarised in the following table.
| Nature
of
meetings: | Number |
| Procurement | 39 |
| Industry
Sponsored | 25 |
| Academic | 5B |
| Charitable | 13 |
| Ceremonial | 7 |
| Regimental | 32 |
| Inquiry
Related | 7 |
| Social | 31 |
| House
of
Lords—Stirrup | 6 |
| House
of
Lords—Dannatt | 3 |
| House
of
Lords—Both | 47 |
| Total | 268 |
The findings show that the vast majority of the contact that the six individuals maintained with the MOD contact was not to discuss procurement of equipment. The vast majority of the 39 occasions when the named individuals were identified as having discussed procurement were entirely within the rules and occurred beyond the period of any individual's lobbying ban. However, the review did find that one former General had breached the restrictions that related to his new employment - imposed on him by the Business Appointments process.
An audit of meetings shows that on 9 occasions Lt Gen Dick Applegate discussed defence equipment with the MOD which were considered in breach of the rules placed upon him since his retirement. None of these meetings resulted in any sales or influenced the MOD'S equipment plan and the MOD has reported this contact to the Cabinet Office - who have responsibility for the Advisory Committee for Business Appointments (ACOBA) - and made clear to the individual that such behaviour is not acceptable.
It is clear from enquiries made that this has been an issue at the MOD not only under this Government but also under the previous administration too. Enquiries have shown for example that under the previous Labour Government 7 former Chiefs continued to have security passes after they had retired, in some cases for a number of years.
In answer to your specific questions, the following tables provide details of meetings and other encounters between Ministers, General Sir David Richards, General Sir Peter Wall and Air Marshal Stephen Hillier with any of Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, Lieutenant General Sir John Kiszley, Lieutenant General Richard Applegate, General Lord Dannatt, Lord Stirrup and General Sir Mike Jackson.
Ministers
| Month
of
meeting | Minister | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| June
2010 | Min
(ISS), Gerald
Howarth | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss the Bloody Sunday
Inquiry |
| July
2010 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| March
2011 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Formation
of the National Memorial
Arboretum |
| April
2011 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Defence
Update |
| May
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Lord
Stirrup | Minister
was keynote speaker at UK Defence Forum
Dinner |
| May
2011 | Min(ISS)
Gerald
Howarth | Lord
Dannatt | Private
lunch in the House of
Commons |
| August
2011 | Secretary
of State, Dr Liam
Fox | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss
DIO |
| September
2011 | Min(DPWV),
right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion 90th Anniversary Thanksgiving Service and
Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| November
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Minister
was a keynote speaker at the Defence Acquisition Conference in
Shrivenham attended by the
General |
| September
2012 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Haig
Homes lunch hosted by Lord
Dannatt |
Since May 2010, Lord Astor of Hever has held around 20 routine defence briefings for Peers. Lord Dannatt (and, since retirement, Lord Stirrup) have been invited to these. These have not been included in the return.
General Sir David Richards (Chief of Defence Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Named
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| April
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Telephone
conversation on Friends of the Forces
Awards |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| November
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
General Sir Peter Wall (Chief of General Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| February
2011 | Lord
Dannatt | Routine
Meeting |
| March
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| July
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Routine
Meeting with Babcock |
| October
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| October
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| February
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| March
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| June
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
Air Vice Marshal (now Air Marshal) Stephen Hillier (Deputy Chief of Defence Staff, Military Capability) (meetings held when he was Director of Information Superiority)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| October
2010 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Defence
Leaders Forum and Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| March
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Charitable
Incorporated Organisation Forum Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| June
2011 | Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | Elbit
Systems
capabilities |
There are no records of any meetings between General Sir Nick Parker and the six listed individuals during the period in question. I can also confirm Andrew Robathan has never stayed as a guest with Sir John Kiszely. Details of meetings between the six named individuals and any other military or civilian members of the MOD could be provided only at disproportionate cost.
The MOD does not hold information about visits to other Government departments.
In light of the findings the Defence Secretary has taken steps to tighten up access and ensure that there cannot be any perception that former employees can exert influence on contracts awarded by the Department.
In order to prevent future occurrences, the Defence Secretary has implemented a comprehensive set of measures to ensure that both former and current employees are clear about the rules and restrictions in place. Under the new approach:
For the first time a list of all ex MOD personnel who are subject to lobbying restrictions under ACOBA will be available for all MOD staff to see;
All staff who leave the Department will now be required to sign a declaration as part of their application if they wish to take up industry posts;
The MOD Permanent Secretary has written to all former MOD personnel subject to business appointment restrictions to remind them of their duties under ACOBA;
The Permanent Secretary has also written to the Association of Defence suppliers to ensure industry members are aware of the Cabinet Office rules;
Transparency measures have been drastically increased - the Permanent Secretary, Chief of Defence Materiel and the Service Chiefs will now be required to publish details of any meetings with external organisations or individuals and of hospitality received. Additionally, selected senior civil servants and military personnel with a commercial aspect to their role will also have to comply with this new transparency agenda;
All MOD staff, both military and civilian, have been reminded by the Permanent Secretary and Chief of Defence Staff of the rules that limit contact with individuals and companies and directed that they need to seek guidance and clearance before any contact is made.
Since the Review the Permanent Secretary has removed almost 2,500 passes allowing access to the MOD'S Main Building to ensure that since Christmas only those members of staff who require regular access to the MOD are granted it. Passes that have not been used for sixty days have been disabled and there will be an ongoing audit of those being granted visitor passes.
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many formal meetings have taken place between (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson and Ministers and senior civil servants...
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many formal meetings have taken place between (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson and Ministers and senior civil servants...
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
Substantive answer from Philip Dunne to Kevan Jones and Jim Murphy:
I write in response to Parliamentary Questions regarding the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years and information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces, Hon. Andrew Robathan MP, informed you that we would provide this information once the Permanent Secretary had reviewed the access that six named retired military officers maintain to Defence, the rules around such access, compliance with those rules, and the level of transparency adopted by the Department. Following my announcement in the House today, I am pleased to confirm the details of our review.
This review has taken some time to complete, as a central record, of meetings between MOD staff and retired personnel is not kept. The size of the Department and the natural turnover of staff would make this an impossible and disproportionate task to record routinely. However, the review exercise has gathered an extensive amount of information about the level of access that the six named individuals maintained to senior civilian and military staff. It found no evidence to indicate that retired or former employees have, or are able, to influence any MOD equipment contracts.
A rigorous process is used for the approval of all equipment projects which involves non-advocate scrutiny of all major investment decisions by an Investment Approvals Committee which provides advice to Ministers and the Accounting Officer.
The overall number of occasions the six named individuals have had contact with senior MOD civilian and military staff since their retirement is contained in the following table.
| Number
of occasions of access to senior MOD
personnel | |
| Admiral
Sir Trevor
Soar | 15 |
| Lord
Stirrup | 37 |
| Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | 51 |
| Lord
Dannatt | 21 |
| Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | 37 |
| General
Sir Mike
Jackson | 59 |
| Total | 268 |
The review also addressed the nature of the contact that has been maintained by the six named individuals with senior civilian and military staff in the MOD, which is summarised in the following table.
| Nature
of
meetings: | Number |
| Procurement | 39 |
| Industry
Sponsored | 25 |
| Academic | 5B |
| Charitable | 13 |
| Ceremonial | 7 |
| Regimental | 32 |
| Inquiry
Related | 7 |
| Social | 31 |
| House
of
Lords—Stirrup | 6 |
| House
of
Lords—Dannatt | 3 |
| House
of
Lords—Both | 47 |
| Total | 268 |
The findings show that the vast majority of the contact that the six individuals maintained with the MOD contact was not to discuss procurement of equipment. The vast majority of the 39 occasions when the named individuals were identified as having discussed procurement were entirely within the rules and occurred beyond the period of any individual's lobbying ban. However, the review did find that one former General had breached the restrictions that related to his new employment - imposed on him by the Business Appointments process.
An audit of meetings shows that on 9 occasions Lt Gen Dick Applegate discussed defence equipment with the MOD which were considered in breach of the rules placed upon him since his retirement. None of these meetings resulted in any sales or influenced the MOD'S equipment plan and the MOD has reported this contact to the Cabinet Office - who have responsibility for the Advisory Committee for Business Appointments (ACOBA) - and made clear to the individual that such behaviour is not acceptable.
It is clear from enquiries made that this has been an issue at the MOD not only under this Government but also under the previous administration too. Enquiries have shown for example that under the previous Labour Government 7 former Chiefs continued to have security passes after they had retired, in some cases for a number of years.
In answer to your specific questions, the following tables provide details of meetings and other encounters between Ministers, General Sir David Richards, General Sir Peter Wall and Air Marshal Stephen Hillier with any of Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, Lieutenant General Sir John Kiszley, Lieutenant General Richard Applegate, General Lord Dannatt, Lord Stirrup and General Sir Mike Jackson.
Ministers
| Month
of
meeting | Minister | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| June
2010 | Min
(ISS), Gerald
Howarth | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss the Bloody Sunday
Inquiry |
| July
2010 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| March
2011 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Formation
of the National Memorial
Arboretum |
| April
2011 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Defence
Update |
| May
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Lord
Stirrup | Minister
was keynote speaker at UK Defence Forum
Dinner |
| May
2011 | Min(ISS)
Gerald
Howarth | Lord
Dannatt | Private
lunch in the House of
Commons |
| August
2011 | Secretary
of State, Dr Liam
Fox | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss
DIO |
| September
2011 | Min(DPWV),
right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion 90th Anniversary Thanksgiving Service and
Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| November
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Minister
was a keynote speaker at the Defence Acquisition Conference in
Shrivenham attended by the
General |
| September
2012 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Haig
Homes lunch hosted by Lord
Dannatt |
Since May 2010, Lord Astor of Hever has held around 20 routine defence briefings for Peers. Lord Dannatt (and, since retirement, Lord Stirrup) have been invited to these. These have not been included in the return.
General Sir David Richards (Chief of Defence Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Named
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| April
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Telephone
conversation on Friends of the Forces
Awards |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| November
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
General Sir Peter Wall (Chief of General Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| February
2011 | Lord
Dannatt | Routine
Meeting |
| March
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| July
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Routine
Meeting with Babcock |
| October
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| October
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| February
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| March
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| June
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
Air Vice Marshal (now Air Marshal) Stephen Hillier (Deputy Chief of Defence Staff, Military Capability) (meetings held when he was Director of Information Superiority)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| October
2010 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Defence
Leaders Forum and Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| March
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Charitable
Incorporated Organisation Forum Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| June
2011 | Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | Elbit
Systems
capabilities |
There are no records of any meetings between General Sir Nick Parker and the six listed individuals during the period in question. I can also confirm Andrew Robathan has never stayed as a guest with Sir John Kiszely. Details of meetings between the six named individuals and any other military or civilian members of the MOD could be provided only at disproportionate cost.
The MOD does not hold information about visits to other Government departments.
In light of the findings the Defence Secretary has taken steps to tighten up access and ensure that there cannot be any perception that former employees can exert influence on contracts awarded by the Department.
In order to prevent future occurrences, the Defence Secretary has implemented a comprehensive set of measures to ensure that both former and current employees are clear about the rules and restrictions in place. Under the new approach:
For the first time a list of all ex MOD personnel who are subject to lobbying restrictions under ACOBA will be available for all MOD staff to see;
All staff who leave the Department will now be required to sign a declaration as part of their application if they wish to take up industry posts;
The MOD Permanent Secretary has written to all former MOD personnel subject to business appointment restrictions to remind them of their duties under ACOBA;
The Permanent Secretary has also written to the Association of Defence suppliers to ensure industry members are aware of the Cabinet Office rules;
Transparency measures have been drastically increased - the Permanent Secretary, Chief of Defence Materiel and the Service Chiefs will now be required to publish details of any meetings with external organisations or individuals and of hospitality received. Additionally, selected senior civil servants and military personnel with a commercial aspect to their role will also have to comply with this new transparency agenda;
All MOD staff, both military and civilian, have been reminded by the Permanent Secretary and Chief of Defence Staff of the rules that limit contact with individuals and companies and directed that they need to seek guidance and clearance before any contact is made.
Since the Review the Permanent Secretary has removed almost 2,500 passes allowing access to the MOD'S Main Building to ensure that since Christmas only those members of staff who require regular access to the MOD are granted it. Passes that have not been used for sixty days have been disabled and there will be an ongoing audit of those being granted visitor passes.
(2) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments since May 2010;
[123968]
Mr Jim Murphy:
(2) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments since May 2010;
[123968]
Mr Jim Murphy:
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
Substantive answer from Philip Dunne to Kevan Jones and Jim Murphy:
I write in response to Parliamentary Questions regarding the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years and information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces, Hon. Andrew Robathan MP, informed you that we would provide this information once the Permanent Secretary had reviewed the access that six named retired military officers maintain to Defence, the rules around such access, compliance with those rules, and the level of transparency adopted by the Department. Following my announcement in the House today, I am pleased to confirm the details of our review.
This review has taken some time to complete, as a central record, of meetings between MOD staff and retired personnel is not kept. The size of the Department and the natural turnover of staff would make this an impossible and disproportionate task to record routinely. However, the review exercise has gathered an extensive amount of information about the level of access that the six named individuals maintained to senior civilian and military staff. It found no evidence to indicate that retired or former employees have, or are able, to influence any MOD equipment contracts.
A rigorous process is used for the approval of all equipment projects which involves non-advocate scrutiny of all major investment decisions by an Investment Approvals Committee which provides advice to Ministers and the Accounting Officer.
The overall number of occasions the six named individuals have had contact with senior MOD civilian and military staff since their retirement is contained in the following table.
| Number
of occasions of access to senior MOD
personnel | |
| Admiral
Sir Trevor
Soar | 15 |
| Lord
Stirrup | 37 |
| Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | 51 |
| Lord
Dannatt | 21 |
| Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | 37 |
| General
Sir Mike
Jackson | 59 |
| Total | 268 |
The review also addressed the nature of the contact that has been maintained by the six named individuals with senior civilian and military staff in the MOD, which is summarised in the following table.
| Nature
of
meetings: | Number |
| Procurement | 39 |
| Industry
Sponsored | 25 |
| Academic | 5B |
| Charitable | 13 |
| Ceremonial | 7 |
| Regimental | 32 |
| Inquiry
Related | 7 |
| Social | 31 |
| House
of
Lords—Stirrup | 6 |
| House
of
Lords—Dannatt | 3 |
| House
of
Lords—Both | 47 |
| Total | 268 |
The findings show that the vast majority of the contact that the six individuals maintained with the MOD contact was not to discuss procurement of equipment. The vast majority of the 39 occasions when the named individuals were identified as having discussed procurement were entirely within the rules and occurred beyond the period of any individual's lobbying ban. However, the review did find that one former General had breached the restrictions that related to his new employment - imposed on him by the Business Appointments process.
An audit of meetings shows that on 9 occasions Lt Gen Dick Applegate discussed defence equipment with the MOD which were considered in breach of the rules placed upon him since his retirement. None of these meetings resulted in any sales or influenced the MOD'S equipment plan and the MOD has reported this contact to the Cabinet Office - who have responsibility for the Advisory Committee for Business Appointments (ACOBA) - and made clear to the individual that such behaviour is not acceptable.
It is clear from enquiries made that this has been an issue at the MOD not only under this Government but also under the previous administration too. Enquiries have shown for example that under the previous Labour Government 7 former Chiefs continued to have security passes after they had retired, in some cases for a number of years.
In answer to your specific questions, the following tables provide details of meetings and other encounters between Ministers, General Sir David Richards, General Sir Peter Wall and Air Marshal Stephen Hillier with any of Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, Lieutenant General Sir John Kiszley, Lieutenant General Richard Applegate, General Lord Dannatt, Lord Stirrup and General Sir Mike Jackson.
Ministers
| Month
of
meeting | Minister | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| June
2010 | Min
(ISS), Gerald
Howarth | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss the Bloody Sunday
Inquiry |
| July
2010 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| March
2011 | Min
(DPWV), right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Formation
of the National Memorial
Arboretum |
| April
2011 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Defence
Update |
| May
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Lord
Stirrup | Minister
was keynote speaker at UK Defence Forum
Dinner |
| May
2011 | Min(ISS)
Gerald
Howarth | Lord
Dannatt | Private
lunch in the House of
Commons |
| August
2011 | Secretary
of State, Dr Liam
Fox | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | To
discuss
DIO |
| September
2011 | Min(DPWV),
right hon. Andrew
Robathan | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Royal
British Legion 90th Anniversary Thanksgiving Service and
Reception (which Sir John may have
attended) |
| November
2011 | Min(DEST),
Peter
Luff | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Minister
was a keynote speaker at the Defence Acquisition Conference in
Shrivenham attended by the
General |
| September
2012 | USofS,
Lord
Astor | Lord
Dannatt | Haig
Homes lunch hosted by Lord
Dannatt |
Since May 2010, Lord Astor of Hever has held around 20 routine defence briefings for Peers. Lord Dannatt (and, since retirement, Lord Stirrup) have been invited to these. These have not been included in the return.
General Sir David Richards (Chief of Defence Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Named
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| April
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Telephone
conversation on Friends of the Forces
Awards |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| November
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Former
CDS
Briefing |
General Sir Peter Wall (Chief of General Staff)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| February
2011 | Lord
Dannatt | Routine
Meeting |
| March
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| May
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| July
2011 | Lt
Gen Sir John
Kiszely | Routine
Meeting with Babcock |
| October
2011 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| October
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| February
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| March
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| May
2012 | Lord
Stirrup | Routine
Meeting |
| June
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Lord
Dannatt | Army
2020 |
| July
2012 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Army
2020 |
Air Vice Marshal (now Air Marshal) Stephen Hillier (Deputy Chief of Defence Staff, Military Capability) (meetings held when he was Director of Information Superiority)
| Month
of
Meeting | Name
of Retired Officer
Met | Purpose
of
Meeting |
| October
2010 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Defence
Leaders Forum and Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| March
2011 | Gen
Sir Mike
Jackson | Charitable
Incorporated Organisation Forum Dinner organised by PA
Consulting |
| June
2011 | Lt
Gen Richard
Applegate | Elbit
Systems
capabilities |
There are no records of any meetings between General Sir Nick Parker and the six listed individuals during the period in question. I can also confirm Andrew Robathan has never stayed as a guest with Sir John Kiszely. Details of meetings between the six named individuals and any other military or civilian members of the MOD could be provided only at disproportionate cost.
The MOD does not hold information about visits to other Government departments.
In light of the findings the Defence Secretary has taken steps to tighten up access and ensure that there cannot be any perception that former employees can exert influence on contracts awarded by the Department.
In order to prevent future occurrences, the Defence Secretary has implemented a comprehensive set of measures to ensure that both former and current employees are clear about the rules and restrictions in place. Under the new approach:
For the first time a list of all ex MOD personnel who are subject to lobbying restrictions under ACOBA will be available for all MOD staff to see;
All staff who leave the Department will now be required to sign a declaration as part of their application if they wish to take up industry posts;
The MOD Permanent Secretary has written to all former MOD personnel subject to business appointment restrictions to remind them of their duties under ACOBA;
The Permanent Secretary has also written to the Association of Defence suppliers to ensure industry members are aware of the Cabinet Office rules;
Transparency measures have been drastically increased - the Permanent Secretary, Chief of Defence Materiel and the Service Chiefs will now be required to publish details of any meetings with external organisations or individuals and of hospitality received. Additionally, selected senior civil servants and military personnel with a commercial aspect to their role will also have to comply with this new transparency agenda;
All MOD staff, both military and civilian, have been reminded by the Permanent Secretary and Chief of Defence Staff of the rules that limit contact with individuals and companies and directed that they need to seek guidance and clearance before any contact is made.
Since the Review the Permanent Secretary has removed almost 2,500 passes allowing access to the MOD'S Main Building to ensure that since Christmas only those members of staff who require regular access to the MOD are granted it. Passes that have not been used for sixty days have been disabled and there will be an ongoing audit of those being granted visitor passes.
(2) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments since May 2010;
[123968]
Mr Jim Murphy:
(2) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments since May 2010;
[123968]
Mr Jim Murphy:
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
(4) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments to discuss the final stages of a procurement bid...
(4) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments to discuss the final stages of a procurement bid...
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many formal meetings have taken place between (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson and Ministers and senior civil servants...
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many formal meetings have taken place between (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson and Ministers and senior civil servants...
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
(3) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments within two years of each of their retirements since...
(3) how many times (a) Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, (b) Lieutenant-General Sir John Kiszley, (c) Lieutenant-General Richard Applegate, (d) General Lord Dannatt, (e) Lord Stirrup and (f) General Sir Mike Jackson have visited (i) his Department and (ii) other Government Departments within two years of each of their retirements since...
[holding answer 18, 19 and 22 October 2012]: Information on third parties who have passes to access the Ministry of Defence (MOD) main building is being compiled as part of the permanent secretary's review into allegations made in The Sunday Times about the access arrangements for retired personnel.
Information is also being compiled on the number of occasions that senior retired officers have visited the MOD over the last few years.
His review is expected to conclude shortly and I will write to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) when it is complete.
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what payments were made from 1 April 2008 to 31 December 2009 to General Sir Richard Dannatt as salary, payment towards pension, reimbursement for expenses in connection with his duties as Chief of the General Staff, and any other payments.
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what payments were made from 1 April 2008 to 31 December 2009 to General Sir Richard Dannatt as salary, payment towards pension, reimbursement for expenses in connection with his duties as Chief of the General Staff, and any other payments.
To ask Her Majesty's Government to what public posts Sir Richard Dannatt has been appointed since his retirement as Chief of the General Staff.
To ask Her Majesty's Government to what public posts Sir Richard Dannatt has been appointed since his retirement as Chief of the General Staff.
To ask Her Majesty's Government what lump sum was paid to Sir Richard Dannatt on his retirement as Chief of the General Staff; and whether that payment was enhanced for any reason.
To ask Her Majesty's Government what lump sum was paid to Sir Richard Dannatt on his retirement as Chief of the General Staff; and whether that payment was enhanced for any reason.
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether his consent was sought for substantive discussions between General Richard Dannatt and the right hon. Member for Witney while the General was a serving officer.
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether his consent was sought for substantive discussions between General Richard Dannatt and the right hon. Member for Witney while the General was a serving officer.