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My Lords, a constitution is a founding document of an organisation. The constitutional treaty would have repealed the existing European Union treaties and refounded the EU under a new, single constitutional order. The Lisbon treaty amends the existing treaties, as did the single European Act, Maastricht, Nice and Amsterdam.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1391
House
House of Lords
My Lords, I am very grateful for and fascinated by the noble Baroness’s Answer, but will she be kind enough to enlighten me on why the Foreign Affairs Committee of another place pointed out to people such as me that there is no material difference between the constitutional treaty and the Lisbon treaty? The Foreign Secretary, no less, thought there should be a referendum to approve the first, but on the second he has apparently changed his mind. What caused him to change his mind?
Asked by
Lord Lyell (Conservative)
Oral questions - 1st Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1391
House
House of Lords
My Lords, I am delighted to fascinate the noble Lord. I shall make clear what was said in another place, by quoting the chairman of the committee in another place, who said that what was in the report was different from what the noble Lord said—that what matters is whether the new treaty produces an effect which is substantially different from the constitutional treaty.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1391
House
House of Lords
My Lords, the noble Lord had a number of points. Of course the Government trust the British people, but the British people also trust the Government and Parliament to do their job. No, my Lords, you cannot have it both ways. I will not have figures bandied around about referendums. I am sure that the noble Lord has studied the figures, as I did. If he looks at the 88.8 per cent from the referendums that took place in the 10 marginals, he will know that of those voting less than one-fifth of the electorate—19.8 per cent of people—were actually in favour of a referendum. That is a substantial difference from the 88.8 per cent being bandied around. Equally, I will be able to quote—indeed, I look forward to it—figures about referendums over the past 20, 30 and 40 years. When invited, the population indeed enjoy the opportunity to talk about the use of referendums, but we are absolutely crystal clear that this is a reform treaty and, as with other reform treaties, it is Parliament’s job to ratify it. That is what we are here to do.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1393
House
House of Lords
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was addressing his question not to me but to my noble friend. I am sure that outside your Lordships’ Chamber my noble friend will be able to answer him.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1392
House
House of Lords
My Lords, we need to be very clear. The other place has now passed the treaty. The reform treaty comes to your Lordships’ House. We will have great opportunities to do some air-clearing ourselves, as we debate and deliberate, but I am very clear on what the role and function of Parliament should be. It is absolutely right and proper that this comes before both Houses of Parliament to be debated and ratified appropriately.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1392
House
House of Lords
My Lords, I very much look forward to the publication of the report and hesitate to pre-empt it, for I have no idea what will be in it. I am quite sure that the debates in your Lordships’ House thus far and to come will demonstrate the expertise and experience of your Lordships.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1391
House
House of Lords
My Lords, if one examines the reform treaty—or what Giscard d’Estaing said about the nine points he specifically refers to as similar or the same in the constitution and the treaty—it is obvious that one of its great benefits is the opportunity for greater scrutiny by Parliament. Noble Lords should welcome that.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1393
House
House of Lords
Indeed, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, put the matter extremely well.
Answered by
Baroness Ashton of Upholland (Labour)
Type
Oral answers to questions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1392
House
House of Lords
My Lords, does the Minister recall the words of Aneurin Bevan: ““Why look into the crystal ball when you can read the book?””? Would it not be better if the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, talked to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, or another of the many former Conservative Ministers who saw the treaty of Maastricht through the Commons and sat in their places in government? They could explain to him why Maastricht—a far more powerful transfer of power than the Lisbon treaty—was handled by Parliament. Would he not think that good advice?
Asked by
Lord McNally (Liberal Democrat)
Oral questions - Supplementary
Status
Answered
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
699 c1392
House
House of Lords

I was merely seeking to prove my credentials for voting for Third Reading by showing that I am not a pushover in any way. I was trying to say that, as a—reasonably—objective person, I do not like many aspects of drift in Europe and also some elements of this treaty....

Member
Barry Sheerman (Labour; Co-operative Party)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c229-31
House
House of Commons

Stockholm syndrome!

Member
Rob Marris (Labour)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c228
House
House of Commons

Indeed—but I found myself observing the way in which the various speakers in the debate reacted to each other's contributions. I shall vote for the Bill tonight. I must confess—this is a confessional, is it not, for Members who have been around as long as I am—that I originally voted...

Member
Barry Sheerman (Labour; Co-operative Party)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c228-9
House
House of Commons

For me, the key issue raised by the Bill is not Europe, but integrity. I took part in the debates because I was shocked at the suggestion that Members should betray the pledge and promise that they made to their electors in their manifesto, and I wanted to know what...

Member
Lord Lilley (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c235-8
House
House of Commons

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the main reasons why the treaty is such a significant shift in power is the criminal justice provisions? Criminal justice and the coercive power of Government over individual is one of the fundamental hallmarks of statehood, so transferring more power in...

Member
Theresa Villiers (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c238
House
House of Commons

The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) hardly gave a ringing endorsement of the treaty. He said that it contained parts he did not like, but that on balance he would vote for it. That is an indictment of a treaty that should be at the end of a reform...

Member
David Heathcoat-Amory (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c231-5
House
House of Commons

I rise with some trepidation. Many Members here are veterans of this important debate, having been present for every day of it, and passions run very high. I hope that I shall resist the urge to become too passionate—or, indeed, as discourteous as some speakers on both sides of the...

Member
Barry Sheerman (Labour; Co-operative Party)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c228
House
House of Commons

That is perfectly true. It is one of the areas, but by no means the only one, where we are making further shifts the full extent and implications of which we cannot fully judge at this stage but know from experience will be wider, not narrower, than any interpretation that...

Member
Lord Lilley (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c238-9
House
House of Commons

No, it doesn't.

Member
Angus Robertson (Scottish National Party)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c240
House
House of Commons

It does genetically, when one looks into the matter closely. The continentals often express themselves in antagonism to the Anglo-Saxon. I remember sitting in Council meetings in Europe and being told that we could not do such and such a thing because it was Anglo-Saxon. I had to say, ““Is...

Member
Lord Lilley (Conservative)
Type
Proceeding contributions
Date
11 March 2008
Reference
473 c240
House
House of Commons