To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether any revenue has accrued to the Exchequer from a cy-près scheme from (a) Zedra Fiduciary Services and (b) the National Fund as at 28 March 2022.

To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether any revenue has accrued to the Exchequer from a cy-près scheme from (a) Zedra Fiduciary Services and (b) the National Fund as at 28 March 2022.

Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Keen of Elie on 17 March (HL2334), when they first became aware of a request from a relative of the donor to return the money in the National Fund to the family; and whether they intend to make any change...

Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Keen of Elie on 17 March (HL2334), when they first became aware of a request from a relative of the donor to return the money in the National Fund to the family; and whether they intend to make any change...

To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Keen of Elie on 14 March 2019 (HL14162), what was the outcome of the Attorney General’s application to the High Court on 22 May 2018 to release the assets of the National Fund; and whether that charity’s up-to-date...

To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Keen of Elie on 14 March 2019 (HL14162), what was the outcome of the Attorney General’s application to the High Court on 22 May 2018 to release the assets of the National Fund; and whether that charity’s up-to-date...

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they intend to take, if any, in regard to the National Fund.

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they intend to take, if any, in regard to the National Fund.

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they hold information about the identity of the donor who set up the National Fund.

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they hold information about the identity of the donor who set up the National Fund.

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Attorney General’s application to the High Court to release the assets of the National Fund has now been concluded; and if so, how those assets are shown in HM Treasury’s accounts.

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Attorney General’s application to the High Court to release the assets of the National Fund has now been concluded; and if so, how those assets are shown in HM Treasury’s accounts.

To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the value of the National Fund in each of the last 30 years.

To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the value of the National Fund in each of the last 30 years.

To ask the Attorney General, pursuant to the Answer of 23rd July 2018 to Question 165033 on the National Fund, whether he has received a hearing date from the High Court on his application to release the money held by the National Fund.

To ask the Attorney General, pursuant to the Answer of 23rd July 2018 to Question 165033 on the National Fund, whether he has received a hearing date from the High Court on his application to release the money held by the National Fund.

I wish to raise several points before the House adjourns for the summer recess, and I am delighted that so many colleagues have stayed to contribute to this debate. We really need a week to do justice to all the subjects that we cover.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member...

I wish to raise several points before the House adjourns for the summer recess, and I am delighted that so many colleagues have stayed to contribute to this debate. We really need a week to do justice to all the subjects that we cover.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member...

To ask the Attorney General, what progress he has made in his application to the High Court to release the money held by the National Fund.

To ask the Attorney General, what progress he has made in his application to the High Court to release the money held by the National Fund.

To ask the Attorney General, if he will seek the release of money from the National Fund in order to set up a fund for good causes.

To ask the Attorney General, if he will seek the release of money from the National Fund in order to set up a fund for good causes.

Could the Minister say something about a separate charitable fund held by the Treasury, which I am told arises from fines imposed on banks during the banking crisis? If that fund exists, what size is it and who can access it?

Could the Minister say something about a separate charitable fund held by the Treasury, which I am told arises from fines imposed on banks during the banking crisis? If that fund exists, what size is it and who can access it?

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. Unfortunately, it is a little beyond my brief today as it does not particularly relate to charities. However, I shall endeavour to find out that information and write to her.

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. Unfortunately, it is a little beyond my brief today as it does not particularly relate to charities. However, I shall endeavour to find out that information and write to her.

My Lords, the trustees actually asked the Charity Commission for permission to give the money to charity, and they referred the matter to the Attorney-General to get permission for that purpose. Why were the wishes of the trustees actually ignored?

My Lords, the trustees actually asked the Charity Commission for permission to give the money to charity, and they referred the matter to the Attorney-General to get permission for that purpose. Why were the wishes of the trustees actually ignored?

My Lords, the charitable purpose of the National Fund is the reduction of the national debt. Therefore, using the fund to reduce the national debt must be the correct approach. It is not right to use money donated for a specified charitable purpose to support one or other different cause, however worthy those other causes may be.

My Lords, the charitable purpose of the National Fund is the reduction of the national debt. Therefore, using the fund to reduce the national debt must be the correct approach. It is not right to use money donated for a specified charitable purpose to support one or other different cause, however worthy those other causes may be.

My Lords, actually, this charity was set up to write off, not to reduce, the national debt—so can we just keep to the facts? The national debt is £1.84 trillion, which is 4,000 times the size of this charity. In fact, the national debt grows by the size of the charity every day. Instead

of helping people with charitable purposes, the Attorney-General has simply given it to his friend, the Chancellor, with no consultation or debate in Parliament and no parliamentary approval. Just because it cannot write off the debt is no reason to use it in the way suggested. Given that we now have a new Attorney-General, would the Minister agree to ask him to reconsider that decision and make sure that charitable money is used for charitable purposes?

My Lords, actually, this charity was set up to write off, not to reduce, the national debt—so can we just keep to the facts? The national debt is £1.84 trillion, which is 4,000 times the size of this charity. In fact, the national debt grows by the size of the charity every day. Instead

of helping people with charitable purposes, the Attorney-General has simply given it to his friend, the Chancellor, with no consultation or debate in Parliament and no parliamentary approval. Just because it cannot write off the debt is no reason to use it in the way suggested. Given that we now have a new Attorney-General, would the Minister agree to ask him to reconsider that decision and make sure that charitable money is used for charitable purposes?

My Lords, the noble Baroness is not quite right. It is, indeed, the charitable purpose of this charity to pay off the national debt. The issue to which she refers is around the administrative provisions within clauses 2 and 3A of the 1928 deed, which specify that it can be paid off when that condition is reached—but the purpose remains the same. However, it is the case that, after much consideration, it is now the opinion of the trustees of the charity, the Charity Commission and, indeed, the investment managers, that to resolve the situation, we should seek the permission of the High Court to use this fund to pay down the national debt.

My Lords, the noble Baroness is not quite right. It is, indeed, the charitable purpose of this charity to pay off the national debt. The issue to which she refers is around the administrative provisions within clauses 2 and 3A of the 1928 deed, which specify that it can be paid off when that condition is reached—but the purpose remains the same. However, it is the case that, after much consideration, it is now the opinion of the trustees of the charity, the Charity Commission and, indeed, the investment managers, that to resolve the situation, we should seek the permission of the High Court to use this fund to pay down the national debt.

My Lords, the wishes of the trustees were not ignored. The noble Lord is quite right in saying that, initially, it was the view of the trustees that the money should be used for other charitable purposes. They approached the Attorney-General, who then looked into the very complex charity laws surrounding this case, and it was then agreed that this was the only reasonable way forward. To that extent, in February 2017, William Shawcross, who was then the chairman of the Charity Commission, said that he accepted the legal correctness of the approach that the Government wished to adopt.

My Lords, the wishes of the trustees were not ignored. The noble Lord is quite right in saying that, initially, it was the view of the trustees that the money should be used for other charitable purposes. They approached the Attorney-General, who then looked into the very complex charity laws surrounding this case, and it was then agreed that this was the only reasonable way forward. To that extent, in February 2017, William Shawcross, who was then the chairman of the Charity Commission, said that he accepted the legal correctness of the approach that the Government wished to adopt.

My Lords, surely there is an easy resolution to this—a payment is made to the Chancellor to keep in the narrow terms of the trust, but the wishes of the trustees for such money to go to charity are then met by an offsetting donation by the Government, which is the kind of mechanism used for dormant bank accounts.

My Lords, surely there is an easy resolution to this—a payment is made to the Chancellor to keep in the narrow terms of the trust, but the wishes of the trustees for such money to go to charity are then met by an offsetting donation by the Government, which is the kind of mechanism used for dormant bank accounts.

My Lords, I do not believe that that would be within the spirit of the law at all.

My Lords, I do not believe that that would be within the spirit of the law at all.