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Liverpool City Council (Prohibition of Smoking in Places of Work) Bill [HL]

My Lords, the heat with which the noble Baroness delivered that response shows that, for some people anyway, there is an element of an anti-smoking campaign in this debate. Although I am a smoker, in preparing this speech I have tried to approach these Bills without the prejudice both ways that has been shown so far in this debate and to look at them in exactly the same way as I would any other Bill. I noted, first, that the 2004 Office for National Statistics report on smoking behaviour and attitudes stated that only 31 per cent of those surveyed thought that smoking should be banned in all pubs and bars, which are of course places of work. We were told earlier that that statistic is not viable in Liverpool and most London boroughs. Be that as it may, places of work are described in both Bills very widely. Clause 4 states that,"““any place to which any person has access while at work””," is considered such. But it does not include domestic premises. These days more and more people work from home. Some homes even have a room set aside for an office into which members of the public go from time to time. Is it logical that they are not covered? That is one of the lesser matters that the Select Committee, on which I am afraid we will have to waste valuable parliamentary time and resources, should examine. More seriously, the Bills state that a place of work includes any vehicle, vessel, aircraft or hovercraft. As far as the last three are concerned, I assume that that means when they are attached to land, tied up in the ports of Liverpool or London, for example. I would be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, or perhaps the Minister, could enlighten me with their interpretation when they wind up. ““Any vehicle”” includes cars and lorries. How are drivers or other smoking occupants to know whether they are acting illegally? Very few will know whether they are in a smoking at work area. Will Liverpool city or London borough boundaries be marked in some way, as are the entrances to the London congestion charge area? The problem of whether you are in or out of the smoking at work area is especially acute in London because the purport of the London Bill is only to authorise borough councils to opt in to the proposed regime. It is particularly noteworthy that the City of Westminster, which historically promotes Greater London private Bills through Parliament and is promoting this one, has said that it has no intention to apply a public smoking ban in Westminster. I now hear that there are other boroughs of the same mind. But I would challenge any working driver to know the exact boundaries of Westminster or any other London borough. I wonder, too, how many would know the exact boundaries of Liverpool. Confusion would reign supreme. That is why, with the hospitality industry, I believe that the only solution to the problem of smoking at work is to have an Act of Parliament covering the whole country, which, of course, the Government have said that they would enact. They said it in the White Paper, Choosing Health, they said it during the general election campaign, and they said it again in the Queen’s Speech. They are currently consulting on their proposals. I have no doubt that by this time next year a Bill will be well into its parliamentary passage. I have a couple of questions for the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. First, if these Bills become law, which I hope they will not, will they override the Government’s Act? In other words, what action will the Government take? Will they override these private Acts or be overridden in the particular areas covered by them? Secondly, does she believe that level 5 on the standard scale is a proportionate fine? Does this crime really compare with, for example, the unlawful movement of special waste, which attracts the same level of fine? There are so many technical problems with these intemperate Bills that I am not in the least surprised that there are 19 petitions against the Liverpool Bill and 20   against the London Bill. Many make the same points and have been drafted by the same parliamentary agents. I was particularly struck by one of them from the Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers and others on the Liverpool Bill. This states that:"““The consultation for the Government White Papers enabled industry to participate fully in the process. In contrast, no such consultation has been undertaken by Liverpool City Council  . . . nor was an opportunity afforded to discuss the success of the provisions voluntarily put in place following the consultations that preceded the two White Papers””." This is no way to legislate, especially on a subject as sensitive as this which, as other noble Lords have said, is highly likely to damage the hospitality industry. The proper way to legislate in this area is to amend the government Bill when we get it, if indeed it needs amendment. I find these Bills a recipe for damaging trade and general confusion.