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Liverpool City Council (Prohibition of Smoking in Places of Work) Bill [HL]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the promoters of these two Bills, and the noble Lord, Lord Stratford, who, I am sure, will quickly learn how, with great subtlety, it is possible to be extremely impolite in this Chamber—the infrequency makes it all the more telling. I declare an interest as joint president of the Association of London Government; that is, the association of the London boroughs. Noble Lords who are veterans of these debates will know better than I do whether any new points have been made today, apart from the geographical ones. As a novice to the debate, I confess that I arrived with my mind made up: to support, personally and on behalf of these Benches, the two Bills. It is Liberal Democrat policy to support such measures. Our manifesto in the recent election dealt with a ban on smoking in all enclosed public places. I am, and have always been, a non-smoker, although there have been many times of tension when I wished I did smoke. There have been many more times when I have realised that non-smokers have one great disadvantage: they miss out on a whole sub-culture of office life. I watch the gaggles of smokers clustered outside City Hall and realise that I am probably missing out on quite a lot of plotting and certainly a lot of good gossip. I knew that we would hear about the rights and liberties of the individual, but I do not find any great dilemma in this regard. Years ago there were similar debates on seat belts, but in this issue one does not even get to the level of asking whether one can be permitted to harm oneself, given the cost to the public purse of treatment. This is about harming other people. Society is justified in applying a restriction to the individual—the restriction is limited to other people’s workplaces, which may also happen to be one’s own—given that the individual’s actions harm other people. Having listened to noble Lords’ contributions and read about the subject, I know that those actions cause significant harm to others. The need to safeguard the health of workers trumps ““the right”” to smoke. I was struck by the relatively new term—new to me, at any rate—““second-hand smoke””. It is much more vivid than ““passive smoking””, which suggests an air of neutrality and calmness. ““Second-hand smoke”” is a more helpful term. We have heard medical evidence today, although I appreciate that not everyone accepts that it is evidence. I am no expert but I have noted that none of those in this House with medical expertise has opposed the Bills. Although I have no medical or technical expertise, I have a little personal experience. When the firm in which I was then a partner moved premises, some years ago, into a brand-new building, we created a smoking room. The bright white walls swiftly changed to the most extraordinarily nasty colour. Things have   moved on since, and employers do not provide smoking rooms because of the inherent dangers. We are now told that a smoking area in a restaurant is not effective; it means only about a 50 per cent reduction in the risk. Most people would expect a much greater reduction in risk as a result of being able to eat in a separate part of the same enclosed space. Perhaps that false expectation is a danger in itself. I had not realised until I read the briefing that ventilation would have to be almost at gale force to be effective. Some in the hospitality industry seem to miss the point that, in any event, the Bills are about protecting employees. It is no answer to say, ““Go and get a job elsewhere””. Why should they? Secondly, can they? Bar jobs may be all that is available to, say, a student paying his way through study or training. Jobs in the hospitality industry are often low paid and may be difficult to find. There is not a lot of choice. Those in the lowest socio-economic groups are at the highest risk of exposure. I mentioned the geographical issues. I am concerned about the disparities. There are, I suspect, very many more pubs in Kensington and Chelsea which sell food than there are in Barking and Dagenham. The Government’s White Paper proposals, on which they are now consulting, go less far than the Bills—and I congratulate Liverpool and the London boroughs. They have not gone further because it would be easier to enforce their proposals, although I suspect that that might be a by-product of their logic. My noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby made a point about local authority autonomy. One point with which I profoundly disagree in these Bills is the Secretary of State having reserved powers to intervene on the level of fixed penalty and ring-fencing. But that is the world in which we live. It may have been that the advice given was: ““This is what the Government want, so do it so as not to make a fuss””. I was interested in and take the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, but perhaps we have several stages to Bills so that that sort of issue can be hammered out. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, who seems not to have rejoined us, talked about the consultation with council tax payers. We have heard about consultation in Liverpool. In London, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, has explained, these are adoptive Bills. Any local authority which intended to go ahead with them without consulting would be rather daft. The noble Lord also painted a picture of the humble smoker up against the big guns of QCs. I have to say that that is not a picture I recognise at all against a background of the very substantial tobacco companies. These issues are often best expressed by members of the public rather than, perhaps necessarily, in rather dry reports. A couple of days ago, I received an e-mail from a member of the public—someone whom I do not know—who wrote:"““I am writing to register my support for legislation to ban smoking in public places. I am sick of going out and being forced to breathe in someone else’s smoke. Plus it could kill me. Smokers are free to do whatever they want to themselves. They are not free to do whatever they want to me””." Normally at this stage on Bills that these Benches support, I would say that I wish them an easy passage. I doubt that the passage of these Bills will be very smooth or very quick. Most of all, I hope that they will be unnecessary because government legislation, as extensive as I would like to see it, will overtake them.